NEED YOUR HELP! Common sources for photo chems database

Sparky · Oct 11, 2007

I was just worried people might get the wrong idea about what you were saying (which might be very easy to interpret in a negative or dismissive light) about 'household chems', PE.

Ian Grant · Oct 11, 2007

Sparky, in the UK buying chemicals is equally restrictive, talking to one of my suppliers last year they require everything to be ordered officially on headed notepaper or with a company official order. This is so all chemicals supplies can be traced by the Police. I have no problem with that.

I have been on the end of a very thorough visit by the Police A knock on the door a plain clothed policeman asked if he could come in, suddenly two more appeared, while I talked to the first the other two went round my premises, looking to see if I had a hidden room. It turned out to be the London Drug squad, all because I bought heater units for 100 litre glass vessels. They were looking for an illegal amphetamine factory, so they were going to see people buying the equipment needed, the suppliers keep that data. They had a long drive (4 hours) and a wasted journey.

Most photo-chemical suppliers are actually flouting the police/security requirements US or UK, because they should have a written record of what you are buying chemicals for, they shouldn't just be assuming you are a photographer making up your own solution, of course its a bit of a grey area.

Having just said that it should be easy to buy all the chemicals you need relatively easily as long as you approach suppliers in the right way. It isn't worth cutting corners by buying from a hardware store unless you know the purity is high enough.

Ian

Photo Engineer · Oct 11, 2007

I would like to add to what Ian has said.

Wards Scientific in the US has stopped all sales to anyone but schools and only via their authorized channels. I can no longer get chemicals there.

In the US, you need a DEA certificate to buy many chemicals. I have one on file with the Formulary, where I get most of the 'restricted' chemicals which are marked in their catalog. I buy some other chemicals elsewhere.

Most recently, the DEA is considering adding silver nitrate and hypo to the list of restricted chemicals, according to one supplier. The reasoning is manyfold, but basically, silver nitrate is a nitrate and can be used to make fulminates, and hypo is used in the manufacture of some illegal drugs. No matter that either of these propositions is a real reach due to difficulty and efficiency, not to mention expense in the case of silver nitrate, there it is.

The problem is in restrictions of sales. The government does NOT want us to have chemicals in our grubby little hands. It's getting so bad that pretty soon washing soda will be banned because carbon dioxide gas can suffocate. Heh!

It may surprise you to know that posession or purchase of lye in NYC is a crime and has been for about 50 years since a series of lye throwing events led to the injury and disfigurment of several prominent people about 50 - 60 years ago or so.

PE

Sparky · Oct 11, 2007

It's SOOO effing retarded. The way officials have become so shallow about such things... like this purported SHOE-BOMBER guy... so now we have to take our shoes off at airports for inspection... (heck - I don't even think they look at them in fact). There are any of a THOUSAND ways to do something like that. (the whole liquids thing notwithstanding - apparently 'officials' couldn't even figure out that it's impossible to effectively make a bomb out of mixed liquids). Thank god he wasn't an underwear bomber!!

You can still get unfettered access to all restricted materials by setting up a minor company and ordering them that way. Where's the security in THAT I ask...?

rwyoung · Oct 11, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
The restrictions we see are the result of general crackdowns in the availability of chemicals to the average public and the fear of chemistry, all chemistry, for whatever purpose.

PE

Within the last month, on a local PBS station, there was a Nova-like show where they were discussing the state of technical education. They focused on kid's chemistry sets and how most of them DON'T INCLUDE CHEMISTRY anymore. Let alone an alcohol burner!

Very sad.

Photo Engineer · Oct 11, 2007

Yes, see the ongoing thread on the state of education in the US for more. I've forgotten the title due to lack of education.

PE

Sparky · Oct 11, 2007

I had an english friend who once explained to me (in his opinion - mind you) that "americans were like mushrooms" insofar as they were "kept in the dark and fed bullshit" - kind of funny - but kind of offensive I'm sure - but there's a wee bit of truth in it maybe when it comes to the state of education.

what's next? banning chemistry courses in university?

Photo Engineer · Oct 11, 2007

Sparky;

Working at Kodak, we had that sign on many darkrooms.

PE

Sparky · Oct 11, 2007

yeah - I guess that would kind of work at Kodak - wouldn't it?

Fanshaw · Oct 12, 2007

For people in the UK who want to take a chance on hardware grade chemicals the Wilkinsons chain of shops sell borax for laundry and sodium hydroxide for drain cleaning. I have used the sodium hydroxide to make Para-Rodinal and had no problems.

Murray@uptowngallery · Oct 22, 2007

One more item availabke from pool chemistry suppliers in the US at least.

(Haviland) Proteam Supreme = borax. I read the MSDS & forgot whether it was penta or decahydrate = no matter, just half-trying to be half-thorough.

At this point I screw everything up before development, when taking the shot.

If I ever progress from hacker to photographer, maybe I'll buy photo-grade stuff.

dogzbum · Oct 22, 2007

I can sympathise with Murray Kelly but note that I am in Townsville (Far North Queensland) and do not even have any access to E6 processing and can only buy one type of B&W film locally. There is also no 120 film C41 processing done locally.

To add to the list:

..Hardware (Bunnings etc)
Hydrochloric Acid (in the concrete / cement section)

..Supermarket
Tartaric Acid
Citric Acid
Sodium Metabisulphite (homebrew steriliser)

..Auto / Welding supply stores
Hydrofluoric Acid / Sulphuric Acid (see my APUG thread in 'camera making')
Cadmium Sulphate (battery rejuvenator)

Murray, note that Vanbar (Melbourne) provide good mail order service for bulk chems (but can not ship liquids). I use them regularly and recommend them.

Neanderman · Oct 22, 2007

gainer said:
Don't tell me that Kodak did not have allowable tolerances in purity of constituents

They absolutely did. They were/are called ANSI/ISO standards. There is one published for every critical chemical used in the industry and were established by committees made up of representatives from all of the major photo materials manufacturers. They list all of the allowable trace chemicals and the limits of each -- levels which have been arrived at through years of testing and not a few accidents. Like a bad batch of dry plates that nearly bankrupted Kodak. Those resulted from there not being the usual level of sulfur impurities in the batch of gelatin. A fact that took years to pin down.

Neanderman · Oct 22, 2007

Murray Kelly said:
I read somewhere that sod. sulphite is used to accellerate the disintegration of tree stumps.

That's potassium nitrate. Saltpetre. Fertilizer. You can make your own. Save up your urine, letting it get stale. Then pour it through a barrel of straw. Save that for a year or so, they rinse the straw with water. Filter the water through some wood ashes and then set it out to evaporate. The end result will yield saltpetre crystals.

Erik Hartmann · Oct 23, 2007

I have a problem with potassium dikromate...
Have to use it for my bromoils....
I have a little left....
but where to by it for a private person

erik

gainer · Oct 23, 2007

In 1973 I wrote my first article for a Photo Magazine: "Kitchen Tested Soups". It was based on use of measuring spoons and cups to measure developer ingredients. I weighed 10 samples of some chemicals and got the mean and the standard deviation from which I concluded that My balance was no more consistent than my spoons. I assumed that the principal reason for using the volumetric measurements was convenience. Even if it was used only to speed up the weighing of a quantity, it was information worth having. For many developer types, the balance proved not to be needed as long as the material was reasonably uniform in particle size. When I got a new supply, I could either weigh the total shipment and measure its volume or pretend that the indicated weight was honest.

I think you all will have to agree that the major requirement of a developer is consistency of rate and characteristics of grain, color, etc from one batch to the next. If you believe that the only way to satisfy that requirement is to use reagent grade chemicals and precision balances, I might say you are a little on the obsessive-compulsive side of me, but I won't try to talk you out of it as long as you are equally obsessive about the pedigrees of your chemicals. It should not do just to require that your supplier be a reputable supplier of photo chemicals.

I think it might be a good idea to run a set of experiments to find out how much leeway you have in measuring these lab grade reagents into a developer batch. Then you might have a better handle on how far down the line you might be able to go before your film tells you it was too far.

After "Kitchen Tested Soups" was published, a friend of mine told me he went out and bought a precision balance good to the tenth of a milligram. It was certainly his right, but the fact that he boasted about it to me meant he wouldn't be caught dead using spoonfuls.

Murray Kelly · Oct 23, 2007

dogzbum said:
I can sympathise with Murray Kelly but note that I am in Townsville (Far North Queensland) and do not even have any access to E6 processing and can only buy one type of B&W film locally. There is also no 120 film C41 processing done locally.

Thanks for the added pointers, Dogzbum.
I actually bought a bunch of 'proper' developer for the Agfa Copex (Bluefire) film I'd bought in bulk. No need. Gadget Gainer came up with a brew recently that made it redundant. Oh well, the Blufire HR will be a source of phenidone. I've enough to make 5 gals. of the stuff. :-(
Vanbar's prices are the ones that sent me o/s for phenidone etc!

Neanderman - I an NOT going to go thru all that just to hasten the disintegration of stumps! My pee will rot socks just the way it is, TU.

Murray, Brisbane

rwyoung · Oct 23, 2007

Murray Kelly said:
Neanderman - I an NOT going to go thru all that just to hasten the disintegration of stumps! My pee will rot socks just the way it is, TU.

Murray, Brisbane

Which of course begs the question:
Why are you peeing into your socks?

Murray Kelly · Oct 24, 2007

rwyoung said:
Which of course begs the question:
Why are you peeing into your socks?

Not my own! I have a split pee.

Oh-and sodium sulphite is used to break down lignin (along with a large no. of other chemicals). It is used in papermaking to do just that. Tree stumps would be an obvious extension of that idea.
It still doesn't help me find any from alternative suppliers.

Murray
Brisbane

NEED YOUR HELP! Common sources for photo chems database

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