NEED YOUR HELP! Common sources for photo chems database

Sparky · Oct 9, 2007

So - I had this idea.

make a database to place on APUG that suggested easy sources for chemicals used in photographic processes (toning would be a huge application for this). Of course - the bulk of these wouldn't be of ASSURED total purity - so for the really critical applications - we'd still need to go to Jon at digitaltruth or to formulary... but when you need something in a pinch, it just isn't critical or the application is a bit more 'experimental' - I think this would be a fabulous resource.

Please add any chemicals you know and love as an entry - and when we reach a certain number (like 100 or so) I'll start putting together a database into a format Sean can use. I'll be sure to make it available in excel format too.

all the best,
Jonathan

Sparky · Oct 9, 2007

So here's my first entry:
Use the form:
CHEMICAL - SOURCE - PRODUCT NAME/DESCRIPTION - NOTES

Sodium Chloride - supermarket - Kosher Salt - (check ingredients to verify quality if poss.)

Sodium Carbonate - Hardware store (H.D. or OSH, typ.) - Soda Ash - Pool pH increaser

Sodium Carbonate - General store or supermarket - Washing Soda (Arm & Hammer)

Sodium Hydroxide - Hardware store (H.D. or OSH, typ.) - Lye (Red Devil recommended)

Hydrochloric Acid - Specialty Paint & Hdwe stores - Rust remover

Sodium Borate (borax) - Jeweller's Supply - called by it's own name (borax)
............................... - Supermarket - 20 Mule Team Borax

Tom Hoskinson · Oct 10, 2007

My most used Photo Chemical Sources

Sparky said:
So here's my first entry:
Use the form:
CHEMICAL - SOURCE - PRODUCT NAME/DESCRIPTION - NOTES

Sodium Chloride - supermarket - Kosher Salt - (check ingredients to verify quality if poss.)

Sodium Carbonate - Hardware store (H.D. or OSH, typ.) - Soda Ash - Pool pH increaser

Sodium Carbonate - General store or supermarket - Washing Soda (Arm & Hammer)

Hydrochloric Acid - Specialty Paint & Hdwe stores - Rust remover

Sodium Borate (borax) - Jeweller's Supply - called by it's own name (borax)
............................... - Supermarket - 20 Mule Team Borax

Sodium Hydroxide - Hardware store (H.D. or OSH, typ.) - Lye (Red Devil recommended)

I am attaching an Excel spreadsheet that contains My most frequently used Photo Chemical Sources.

Tom Hoskinson

gainer · Oct 10, 2007

I'm not sure about Kosher salt. Kosher, so far as I know, refers to Rabbinical approval for human consumption, and there are things in natural salt that are not always good photographically. I believe iodized salt could be declared Kosher, and iodine is a powerful restrainer of development. Better use canning salt, which is without iodine and quite pure.

I can't get Red Devil or any other brand of lye here in Glenville WV. It's a college town, and maybe the overseers of the public welfare are afraid someone will use it to make drugs. That's a bit silly, because i can mail order NaOH or KOH from the Chemistry Store.

Soeren · Oct 10, 2007

Maybe the database should be parted in e.g american and european sources?
I just lost the possibility to order through my company so now I'm in the deep.
Where do I get FAC and Potasium Ferricyanide in DK? None of the companies I contacted will sell to private persons
Kind Regards
Søren

Murray Kelly · Oct 10, 2007

Here in Oz

Pool shop and bigger hardware stores:
Sodium thiosulphate (chlorine reducer)
Sodium Carbonate (pH increaser)
Sodium bicarbonate (buffer)
Hydrochloric acid (ph reducer)

Hardware/garden store:
Deionised water
Borax
Sodium hydroxide (lye - caustic soda)
Ammonium sulphate

Health food/brew shops
Ascorbic acid
Sodium ascorbate
Sodium metabisuphite

Grocery
Plain salt (NaCl)
Coffee granules

Auto supplies
Deionised water
ethylene glycol

Chem House
Triethanolamine 85%

That's all I can think of just now

Murray, Brisbane

Photo Engineer · Oct 10, 2007

Lye, when you look at the flakes is often flecked with black or brown spots due to impurities. This type should not be used. It must be pure white and translucent.

Sodium chloride is almost always packed with a silicate to prevent caking. This impurity will decrease the actual amount of sodium chloride added.

Sodium Carbonate used for pool supplies is listed as 95% pure. Very often the impurity is sodium bromide and other halide salts which are not good for developers, being restrainers. The same is true for Borax. These are taken from raw deposits in the ground and minimally purified, and therefore have the original sea salts left in them as a 5% impurity.

Triethanolamine 85% is 15% diethanol amine which gives a different pH value per unit weight. This will change the activity of the solution it is used in.

And etc.

I hate to throw cold water on this party, but these are facts. I've argued this out over on Photo Net about 2 years ago and am about to give up. If you don't mind variability, then go ahead, but penny pinching on valuable photos is not my idea of fun.

PE

Lowell Huff · Oct 10, 2007

I must agree with the PHOTO ENGINEER. Buying chemicals from "non professional" source is very risky! There are plenty of sources for quality, raw material suppliers. Think ahead, plan in advance, order in time to meet your needs. We do this every day in our business. By the time you have gone to the pool supply store, the grocery store, the auto supply store, health food store, and the hardware store you could have gotten the needed suppliers from one or two chemical suppliers.

Sparky · Oct 10, 2007

My understanding of Kosher Salt, independent of any religious aspects, was that it was guaranteed to be free of added iodine. So maybe it requires more investigation. Sea salt, it seems to me would have too much other stuff in it to be truly recommendable...

gainer said:
I'm not sure about Kosher salt. Kosher, so far as I know, refers to Rabbinical approval for human consumption, and there are things in natural salt that are not always good photographically. I believe iodized salt could be declared Kosher, and iodine is a powerful restrainer of development. Better use canning salt, which is without iodine and quite pure.

I can't get Red Devil or any other brand of lye here in Glenville WV. It's a college town, and maybe the overseers of the public welfare are afraid someone will use it to make drugs. That's a bit silly, because i can mail order NaOH or KOH from the Chemistry Store.

Sparky · Oct 10, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
Sodium Carbonate used for pool supplies is listed as 95% pure.

Hi PE - no problem throwing cold water on the party if the party NEEDS cold water thrown at it. I would think, with your purported background as a chemist, that you would encourage people to learn more about various compounds and their interaction.

Each of the entries I have made I've checked out and in each particular case I've looked for a certain assurance. For example - the Sodium Carbonate I found was labelled "100% Sodium Carbonate". That's good enough for me - and certainly for all but the most critical applications. Granted - there are things to watch out for (iodized salts notwithstanding), but, as mentioned, we're not looking for lab grade reagents but something that will "do the job" within a certain specification.

While I wouldn't recommend use of any such source for a reagent in so critical an application as film development WITHOUT preliminary testing - it's PERFECTLY acceptable for many many other things (i.e. bleaches, stop baths, wash aids, many alternative processes, etc...) and in many cases there are also means of getting rid of impurities.

Especially in a world where doors are being closed and companies like Kodak are abandoning their contributions to photochemistry at the consumer level - it is becoming increasingly critical that people make themselves aware that many of these things can be sourced locally and we can be resourceful and proactive and take matters into our own hands. Not to mention the HUGE benefits of self-education when it comes to photochemistry.

It's not so much about the penny pinching for me as about accessibility when you don't have a week or two to wait for chemicals by mail order - or when you want to indulge in wanton experimentation without worrying about flushing $200 worth of reagents from formulary down the toilet when things don't work out. Hey- how do you think the progenitors of all these established processes started out...?

Photo Engineer · Oct 10, 2007

Sparky;

I've made a comment in another post today. We may all end up scratch mixing chemistry.

But, just to take an example, is the 100% sodium carbonate - anyhdrous or monohydrate? I'm sure it is the monohydrate, but there will be an error factor if it is not. The other big problem is with the diethanol amine. I pointed that out already.

Now, the bottom line is this. If we buy from the grocery store or the automobile store, what will happen to legitimate sources of photo chemicals such as the Formulary and other suppliers? Without purchases of sodium chloride and sodium carbonate, their sales shrink and finally we will have nothing left but the grocery store.

This poses a real problem. I do see your point, but I'm looking at it from the other end, and without suppliers like the Formulary and others such as KYANTEC, then we cannot get HQ, Metol, Amidol, Glycin, and etc..... This puts us out of business unless you use vitamin C and Tylenol.

This is all well and good for the scratch mixer, but the emulsion maker is now out of business. We cannot use grocery store chemistry for emulsion making. I've tried. It just does not work reliably.

Whatever way you cut it, we need reputable suppliers, not grocery store supplies in order to make good, repeatable processing solutions and also, eventually, emulsions.

I know, it feels good to figure out how to make a developer out of coffee or tylenol, but does it give good quality all of the time and reliable speed and grain as well as curve shape and sharpness? Results here would say it does not. Look at some of the posts. They are 'art'. Good, but not professional quality.

I mean no disrespect to those doing this, but I must point out the quality issue for the long term. Why buy a box of 4x5 TX and then develop it in several batches of caffeinol with speeds from 40 - 400 and grain like basketballs?

PE

Sparky · Oct 10, 2007

PE - I guess those with a need will do it this way. I'm sure that formulary will not suffer as a result. If anything - I'd imagine photochem reagent sales are WAY up as compared to five years ago. Point taken though. I fully concur with the democratic process being alive in who you choose to support. I figure this is good for wackos like me who are experimenting with stuff like FSA toning, etc.

I'm pretty big on using the good stuff where needed. I tend not to mess around formulating my own developers where others have done such a great job. The market will, I'm sure, sort itself out though.

Photo Engineer · Oct 10, 2007

Sparky;

As I said, I see what you are trying to do. OTOH, we must be responsible and point out the potential pitfalls in going down the path you suggest.

I'm not just suggesting the Formulary as a source. There are others as I noted in my other post. But, sales are down everywhere AFAIK. That is because film sales are down. I suspect that as a percentage, sales at places like the Formulary and Digital Truth are up in a down market as people find that they cannot get Glycin or Amidol elsewhere. Nevertheless, this is still a downward trend. I remind you that Kodak sales of all analog products went from $20B to $1B in about 10 years.

PE

gainer · Oct 10, 2007

Can the monohydrate or the decahydrate legally be listed as 100% sodium carbonate? Should it not say "Active ingredients- 100% Sodium Carbonate"? If you are referring to the MSDS, that's another matter. One may have to estimate the amount of actual carbonate or other substance ingested. It might be important to know whether you have anhydrous carbonate or washing soda.

How often does it happen that the amount of carbonate is so critical in a developer that the use of monohydrate in place of anhydrous or vice versa will make a measurable difference?

Don't tell me that Kodak did not have allowable tolerances in purity of constituents and in weighing and packaging its developers. When the lab techs have established the ideal, I'll bet that they or another branch must establish allowable variations that will not affect practical use. Otherwise, mass production and shipping would be impossibly and unnecessarily expensive.

I'll grant that certain products, as you have said, depend on high purity, but not very many of the mixtures we use to process film.

Removing the acetic acid part of acetaminophen (Tylenol) is not such a bad thing if you have a developer, such as Rodinal, that makes good use of what remains. Rodinal users were for a while concerned that there would be no more ready mixed Rodinal available commercially. This is no worse, chemically, than removing the hydrochloric acid tail of p-aminophenol.HCl. Even so, it is probably cheaper to buy a pound of p-aminophenol base at PF than to make a pound from Tylenol. I cannot understand the obsession with caffeinol, though. I would rather use the caffeine to stay awake during long darkroom sessions.

Photo Engineer · Oct 10, 2007

Patrick;

There are plusses and minuses in what you say about carbonate. Basically, while the pH may be the same, the buffer capacity may change. This will change the charateristics of the developed image in some cases, depending on dilution. It is here, with dilute developers that buffer capacity becomes important.

Most people fail to distinguish between pH and buffer capacity.

OTOH, any impurity in the 95% material may be bicarbonate or oxide. I have even mentioned that sodium oxide and sodium hydroxide might be present due to overheating. This will cause a huge pH shift upwards. Certainly an undesired condition.

PE

gainer · Oct 11, 2007

I wonder sometimes how some of the precisely stated quantities of chemicals in developer formulas were arrived at. It is interesting to do a sort of ring-around to see how much difference it takes to be apparent in the results.

Sometimes I am convinced that a formula that was originally written in ounces and grains was translated to the nearest 1/10 or even 1/100 gram, or the other way round from grams to ounces and grains. We like to think we need precision, but often cannot tell what contrast index we need well enough to warrant the precision we think we need in measuring the developer constituents, or even the dilution and time we would need for using a commercial developer to get the precision we think we need.

Of course, I am not referring to the kind of laboratory precision that must go into the research that you are so familiar with. However, I'll bet that a lot of very good photos have been made by deviating accidentally or on purpose from the instructions that came with the film, developer and/or printing paper. The problem comes in trying to tell another how you did it if it was all the result of serendipity. I have done things, I know, that came out very well, that I couldn't repeat because I didn't know exactly what mistake I made. There have also been things that did not turn out well, and I never did find out exactly why.

In any kind of experimental research we have random errors of measurement and we have blunders. Statistical analysis takes care of randomness given enough trials, but Oh, those blunders!

Sparky · Oct 11, 2007

running with the spirit of what gainer has to say - and commenting on PE's remarks about differences between buffer capacity and pH - I very much doubt that the originators of the most often used formulas had any clue as to the distinction either...!

Photo Engineer · Oct 11, 2007

Sparky said:
running with the spirit of what gainer has to say - and commenting on PE's remarks about differences between buffer capacity and pH - I very much doubt that the originators of the most often used formulas had any clue as to the distinction either...!

As the originator of at least two popular formulas and having worked with the originators of several others, I can state that we were acutely aware of both buffer capacity and pH, and also the effects of the atmosphere on open solutions, and the effect of pH value vs stability. Well, we were aware of all of this in order to design new developers, bleaches, fixes and etc....

That is why most all packaged Kodak chemicals have high stability both in the package and as stock solutions.

PE

Murray Kelly · Oct 11, 2007

PE,
I live in a city a long way away from the NA suppliers. My city is close to 2 million ppl but all the photohouses have stopped carrying bulk chemicals and are digital except for Leicas, Nikons and Canons. One can get some Kodak and Ilford premixes only.

If I buy from the nearest bulk supplier 1000 miles away I have to pay killer transport rates on over priced products.

Sodium suphite is my main problem, like gainer, but I have a jar of Analar grade I cherish and use sparingly. Using home brews is a way of life for me. Ascorbic acid has been a life saver. It's cheap enough to toss if I suspect its freshness. The big bags of salt are crusty and have no 'added' iodide which would be on the label - we have pretty harsh labelling laws in Australia. Much tougher than the US. Even the Rodinal has an added sticker for the local market saying there is 47g/L of KOH in it.

I am prepared to accept your truths about the quality of hardware store chems, but the NaOH and Borax are clear and white with no rust marks you mention. Carbonate buffers pretty well with rough measurement (teaspoons) so why am I going to get my nickers in a knot if I add a little more or less?
'Needs must when the Devil drives' as they say.

As for the commercial grade TEA (85% minimum) the Dow site tells me the pH is going to be something like .2 pH higher than the 99%. I won't lose any sleep over that. I could buffer it down, if I felt like the trouble. Hey! Boric acid - @ the pharmacy. Forgot that one. And white viegar @ the grocers.

There are a lot of requests on APUG for newbies who want to try their hand at homebrewing and often ask for help on sourcing their requirements.
Using the trade grades will give them an image that is pretty satisfactory to them at minimal cost. If they want to go on to bigger and better things they can decide if they want the expense of ordering in carbonate or whatever whilst they get the phenidone, catechol etc. I bet they rarely change.

Don't kill the thread, please!
Murray, Brisbane OZ

Photo Engineer · Oct 11, 2007

Murray;

I'm not trying to kill it, but rather preesnt a balanced view for those out there in need of this information. As I've said over and over - "Use what works for you!". That is the bottom line here.

BTW, that 0.2 pH higher may not be the only thing. The diethanol amine impurity of 15% is also a silver halide solvent to some extent, and therefore may have other effects. So, this fact should be known to those wishing to use it.

I'm sorry to hear that things are so hard to get on OZ. I have to pay killer shipping costs in the US as well, and we are now down to 2 local photo stores which usually have to special order the chemistry.

BTW, I have suggested, through a back door at EK, that since they are losing market share in packaged chemcials the least they could do is publish the formulas. This includes color as well as B&W. IDK if this will have any effect, but I have done it in the interests of people like Sparky and you and the rest of the APUG scratch mix gang.

PE

Murray Kelly · Oct 11, 2007

TU, PE.

I hoped you wouldn't take my minor criticisms too badly.

A word in the right places .......

Thanks for the HU on solvency attributes of DEA. Joke - would it do the 'solvent' effect of sulphite?

Anyway let's hear from anyone with alternative supplies of common chems.

I read somewhere that sod. sulphite is used to accellerate the disintegration of tree stumps. I will have to follow that one up, here. My connections to the land are few. We are a very urban society in OZ. Forget Crocodile Dundee.

Believe it or not, but it's cheaper for me to buy the developer agents from the US! :-(

Chers, Murray, Brisbane

Sparky · Oct 11, 2007

Guess what, PE...! I used my swimming pool sodium carbonate, my kosher salt and my 'root killer' 99% copper sulfate homemade bleach last night and the results were AWESOME. Apparently these chems didn't realize that you disapproved...!

There are people who are going to do this regardless what you think about it.

At any rate - my point about the buffer capacity and pH, etc... was that, while 'modern' firms like Kodak may well do research into stuff like that - but I doubt the progenitors of many of the formulas used today had any clue. They were just schmucks like the rest of us messing around. You don't need to be a Ph.D. chemist to develop a killer solution. Just look at AA for example - he messed around QUITE a lot with his devs - and I doubt he even really dealt with pH at all. If it works, it works. Being closed-minded like this is really going to prevent one from discovering some wonderful things, in my opinion.

Ian Grant · Oct 11, 2007

Sparky,using consumer chemicals for some uses like toners, bleaches etc is fine, but when your making up more critical formulae for film or print processing the degree of purity and more importantly what those impurities are is much more important.

I do have some suggestions for obtaining chemicals when there's no apparent local supplier. You could try asking a local school or college, the laboratory technician there will be routinely buying chemical, but possibly a better place is your local chemists, (drugstore), the pharmacist can usually get almost any chemical you want. You may be lucky and find one who's helpful, I have bought that way in the past.

Sparky · Oct 11, 2007

Hi Ian - well - YES - that's exactly what I was trying to say all along if you read the posts. I was suggesting the hardware store, etc as a great source for non-critical chemicals...

sadly it is no longer possible in north america to get common reagents at the druggist, thanks to the 'homeland security game'. oh well.

Photo Engineer · Oct 11, 2007

Well, I hope you read my comment - "USE WHAT WORKS FOR YOU" but here it is again just in case. I'm merely trying to present a balanced view and Ian has said it well. It will almost certainly work for non-critical chemistry but may (MAY) cause problems for developers. That is why I mention what I do.

As for TEA impurities, yes the impurity can act as a solvent much like sulfite, but since it varies a bit in activity it is harder to predict. Again, this can contribute to the results in solvent activity of films which may not be apparent unless you use magnifications such as 8x10 from 35mm and make direct comparisons of D76 and the scratch mix (or several batches of scratch mix) for an example.

As Ian implied, it might only be important under some conditions in some solutions.

The restrictions we see are the result of general crackdowns in the availability of chemicals to the average public and the fear of chemistry, all chemistry, for whatever purpose.

PE

NEED YOUR HELP! Common sources for photo chems database

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