need to shoot at 3200, whats going to have the least grain

jodad · Jul 23, 2019

Hey guys, i need to shoot MF film 6x6 at 3200 for a few projects (not great light plus need to be at f11 and f16 because no rangefinder and guessing focus for variable distances). What i want to know is what would be the best film to push to this speed that will give me the cleanest results in B&W with the least grain? I realise that developer will make a difference too so suggestions there are appreciated too!

jim appleyard · Jul 23, 2019

I take it that you can't/don't want to/don't have a flash unit to use? That might help a lot. Are you going to develop the film yourself? Remember that Delta 3200 is NOT a 3200 speed film, it is more like 1200. You will need to push it to 3200. You will also have to push a film like Tri-X or HP-5 to 3200 and you may lose quite a bit of shadow detail and contrast will go up. I can't say which way to go for grain, but delta 3200 will more than likely be better at keeping your shadow detail.

pentaxuser · Jul 23, 2019

What will be the light conditions and what are you shooting i.e. low motion or no motion is completely different f at f11 and f16 from action shots.

In addition it might be useful to say roughly how far away the subject(s) will be and what the range of focus you will need. Yes the DoF in a 6x6 is limited at lower apertures such as f8, f5.6 but distance comes into it as does the focal length of the lens. It sounds as if it will be a fixed "normal" focal length of lens but knowing this will also help us to help you

I think we need to know more

pentaxuser

jodad · Jul 23, 2019

Thanks for the replies guys/gals

jim appleyard said:
I take it that you can't/don't want to/don't have a flash unit to use? Are you going to develop the film yourself?

I will be developing myself and wont be able to use flash.

pentaxuser said:
What will be the light conditions and what are you shooting i.e. low motion or no motion is completely different f at f11 and f16 from action shots.
In addition it might be useful to say roughly how far away the subject(s) will be and what the range of focus you will need. Yes the DoF in a 6x6 is limited at lower apertures such as f8, f5.6 but distance comes into it as does the focal length of the lens. It sounds as if it will be a fixed "normal" focal length of lens but knowing this will also help us to help you

I think we need to know more

pentaxuser

Mainly indoor with not particularly strong lighting. With a RF i could go to 800 maybe because i could accurately focus but since im using a camera wiuthout a RF and wont be able to ground glass (mostly handheld and "candid" ) i need some Dof to actually get stuff in focus.

Im sorry guys/gals, i didn't really explain properly.

Let me put it this way, I will be using a 120 film (in 6x6 and 6x8) equivalent of a rollei 35 (albeit with one of two 28mm equivalent lens depending on the aspect ratio ) - so estimating distance and using lens distance markers. i will be shooting indoors or outdoors in low light and no action shots but mainly candid so no time to use a separate rangefinder or ground glass.

As such, i want a high speed film so i can shoot at higher apertures to get deep dof to guarantee not missing focus too often.

So, what would be my best option for low grain (or at least as relatively low as possible) at high speed?

abruzzi · Jul 23, 2019

I've got great results using Delta 3200 and John Hicks times for Xtol 1:2 here:

https://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Times/D3200/d3200.html

the negatives were obviously thin, but that is the nature of the shots I took. This was shot handheld with a Pentax 67. Its a bit grainy but less than I would expect at 3200:

jim appleyard · Jul 23, 2019

How far will you be from the subject, generally? We used to use a guesstimate f/stop & distance rule of thumb at wedding receptions when the lights were low and you couldn't see to focus well or AF just wouldn't work. Just remember 7-11, as in the convenience stores( if you have them in London). Set the lens at 7 feet, shoot at f/11 and make sure you're roughly 7 feet from the subject. Depth of filed will usually give you a decent shot. If you could do something like that....

pentaxuser · Jul 23, 2019

If you will be using the equivalent of 28mm in 35mm on a 6x6 then the DoF is very large even at f8. If I were you I'd decide what is the minimum speed you can comfortably handhold the camera for a sharp focus then work back from that. If you cannot gain access to the venue but can access a similarly lit venue then try and go there with a light meter to see what readings you get. From that you can decide the speed of film required. Without a better description of the light then all we can do is guess the EV value but I'd hazard a guess with D3200 you can reduce the speed to 1600 easily and still have very acceptable shutter speeds for handholding for non action shots

1600 gets it close to the real speed of maybe 1200 in the likes of Microphen and the closer to the real speed you can get the better is likely to be shadow detail.

As far as grain is concerned then it depends on the size of the resultant print but at 6x6 grain is probably not a worry unless the enlargement is very big. How big will it be?

There are those who favour the lower contrast and shadow detail that D3200 seems to deliver at higher speeds such as 1600 and others who believe that HP5+ pushed to 1600 or even 3200 is a match to D3200.

The only definite minus point for D3200 that I can think of is that it is considerably more expensive than HP5+

pentaxuser

Colin Corneau · Jul 23, 2019

I'm not going to get into what Ilford's Delta3200 film is 'really' rated at, but I will say from using it that the general thought on their part seems to be that they make it deliberately low contrast so that when it's pushed (to 3200 or beyond) then the inherent contrast bump is accounted for.

Not wanting to get into an argument on the minutae of how film works, but it's been my experience in shooting that film (in 120) at both 1600 and higher.

I think if you want to retain any shadow detail, that's the film you want to get. It's going to be up to you to find a developer that works for you, since everyone develops film differently...for starters though you can't go wrong with investigating Ilford DD-X or Microphen. Good luck!

john_s · Jul 23, 2019

Whatever you decide, I think a trial run first would be very worthwhile. In particular, relying on DoF tables can lead to great disappointment as they are not based on very sharp results. Normally one uses larger film sizes to achieve sharper or less grainy results, or less DoF (maybe for portraits). Why do you want to use rollfilm? My experiments with Delta3200 and 6x6 camera led me to revert to 35mm for low light requiring some DoF.

grainyvision · Jul 23, 2019

In my experience Delta 3200 has a lot smoother grain than T-Max 3200, and much better shadow detail than pushed HP5+ or Tri-X. The downside of Delta 3200 to me is the contrast seems wrong in some way I can't quite put my finger on. Basically the image will appear low contrast, but yet have clipped highlight and shadow detail, like a higher contrast film. To me T-Max 3200 also has more attractive and more natural looking grain, while Delta 3200s is quite a bit smaller/less but looks worse. I always go for T-Max 3200 when I need that kind of speed, or if I can do ISO 1600 then I prefer HP5+ pushed. At 3200 HP5+ loses too much shadow detail though

Edit: Also DD-X is my go-to for pushing film. HC110 dil B leaves too much "stray" grain in highlights and shadows to me and ends up with chunkier grain and less shadow detail. I've also used D-76 1+1 with good results, but I don't use it often enough to give much advice there. I've heard D-76 undiluted is great for pushing though, giving results similar to DD-X

warden · Jul 23, 2019

earlz said:
In my experience Delta 3200 has a lot smoother grain than T-Max 3200, and much better shadow detail than pushed HP5+ or Tri-X. The downside of Delta 3200 to me is the contrast seems wrong in some way I can't quite put my finger on. Basically the image will appear low contrast, but yet have clipped highlight and shadow detail, like a higher contrast film. To me T-Max 3200 also has more attractive and more natural looking grain, while Delta 3200s is quite a bit smaller/less but looks worse. I always go for T-Max 3200 when I need that kind of speed, or if I can do ISO 1600 then I prefer HP5+ pushed. At 3200 HP5+ loses too much shadow detail though

Edit: Also DD-X is my go-to for pushing film. HC110 dil B leaves too much "stray" grain in highlights and shadows to me and ends up with chunkier grain and less shadow detail. I've also used D-76 1+1 with good results, but I don't use it often enough to give much advice there. I've heard D-76 undiluted is great for pushing though, giving results similar to DD-X

He's shooting MF so T-Max 3200 isn't applicable. (although I agree it's a great film in 35mm)

My advice is to test D3200 + DDX following the manufacturer's instructions for developing. Many find that developing one stop faster than you exposed works better though, so if you expose at iso1600, you could try developing using Ilford's instructions for iso3200.

Experiment and have fun!

NB23 · Jul 24, 2019

Haven’t read the answers but I know that Delta 3200 in Xtol is excellent.

Sirius Glass · Jul 24, 2019

NB23 said:
Haven’t read the answers but I know that Delta 3200 in Xtol is excellent.

Yes but I still have not found a development time for replenished XTOL in a Jobo processor. I have to get back to testing again. I hate testing!

awty · Jul 24, 2019

Whatever developer you use do it straight, that will give you very nice contrast, 1:1 will lower contrast and grain a little, microphen, xtrol and even D76 work well with d3200. Grain isnt that much of an issue with medium format compared to 35mm. Biggest hang up is accurate metering, at that ISO will not be very forgiving especially if you have strong lights to deal with. Even lighting of only a few stops different is what you want to work with if you value your shadow detail.

Paul Howell · Jul 24, 2019

Does Kodak offer Tmax 3200 in 120?

pentaxuser · Jul 24, 2019

Paul Howell said:
Does Kodak offer Tmax 3200 in 120?

I take it this is a rhetorical question?

pentaxuser

MultiFormat Shooter · Jul 24, 2019

Paul Howell said:
Does Kodak offer Tmax 3200 in 120?

Not yet, but there is talk that they will release TMax 3200, in 120. I'm not aware of a specific timeline, though.

Tor-Einar Jarnbjo · Jul 25, 2019

The last couple of years, I have been using only Rollei RPX400, Agfa APX400 or Kentmere 400 (the films are basically the same) and pushing them to 3200 in the Rollei RPX-D developer when shooting in low-light conditions. AFAIK, only RPX400 is available in 120 format.

That may sound strange, but I actually like the results better than with the dedicated 3200 films from Kodak or Ilford. The RPX-D developer tames the contrast very well even with a 3 stop push, I still have details in the shadows and the grain is relatively fine. I can make virtually grainless 12x16" prints from 6x7 negatives.

Here an example:

need to shoot at 3200, whats going to have the least grain

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