Need suggestions for home E6 processing

Discpad · Aug 20, 2007

dslater said:
Hi Dan,
The Wiki article looks good - only a couple of comments.
1) I believe the first developer temperature is 100.4 F == exactly 38C
2) Jobo's directions for E-6 processing with a Jobo specifies 6:30 first developer time for Kodak films and 7:30 for Fuji films. I think this is due to the continuous agitation.

Dan

Hi Dan!

If you go to my Dead Link Removed and scroll down, you'll find the complete Kodak E6 Q-LAB Process Control Handbook Z-6 (which I recompiled into a single handy PDF volume): It's from this extensive manual, as well as Z-99 & Z-119 that I based the article on. If Kodak says 100.0F, then that's what I copied.

In any case, two things come to mind:

1) If anything, the first developer time in a Jobo would tend to be a hair shorter, not longer, due to the very vigorous agitation. I use the 75 speed on my ATL-3 for both C-41 & E-6;

2) There's somewhat of a divergence in one of the Fuji chrome films -- I **think** it was Provia 100F -- where the Process CR56 1st dev time is reduced from the standard 6:00 down to 5:00.

>>> Photo Engineer will have to chime in here...

When developing E-6, I (almost) always aim low: What you suggest by increasing the temp from 100.0 to 100.4 and 1st dev time from 6:00 to 6:30 will have the cumulative effect of unintentionally pushing the film 1/2 to 2/3 stop, which is the same as overexposing by that amount... With concomitant blown highlights.

Also, when developing E-6 in a rotary tube processor, as compared to a leader card or dip & dunk processor, you have the issue of the first developer not "stopping" quite as quickly, again adding to cumulative, unintentional pushing. Originally, E-6 used a stop bath after the first dev; but it was changed to a slightly less active P-Q developer bath with a water stop accomplished in the first wash.

Hope this helps!
Dan

dslater · Aug 20, 2007

Discpad said:
Hi Dan!

If you go to my Dead Link Removed and scroll down, you'll find the complete Kodak E6 Q-LAB Process Control Handbook Z-6 (which I recompiled into a single handy PDF volume): It's from this extensive manual, as well as Z-99 & Z-119 that I based the article on. If Kodak says 100.0F, then that's what I copied.

In any case, two things come to mind:

1) If anything, the first developer time in a Jobo would tend to be a hair shorter, not longer, due to the very vigorous agitation. I use the 75 speed on my ATL-3 for both C-41 & E-6;

2) There's somewhat of a divergence in one of the Fuji chrome films -- I **think** it was Provia 100F -- where the Process CR56 1st dev time is reduced from the standard 6:00 down to 5:00.

>>> Photo Engineer will have to chime in here...

When developing E-6, I (almost) always aim low: What you suggest by increasing the temp from 100.0 to 100.4 and 1st dev time from 6:00 to 6:30 will have the cumulative effect of unintentionally pushing the film 1/2 to 2/3 stop, which is the same as overexposing by that amount... With concomitant blown highlights.

Also, when developing E-6 in a rotary tube processor, as compared to a leader card or dip & dunk processor, you have the issue of the first developer not "stopping" quite as quickly, again adding to cumulative, unintentional pushing. Originally, E-6 used a stop bath after the first dev; but it was changed to a slightly less active P-Q developer bath with a water stop accomplished in the first wash.

Hope this helps!
Dan

Hi Dan,

1) The 100.4 temp comes straight from Kodak's Z-119 pdf on the Kodak site for rotary processing (http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/service/Zmanuals/z119-10.pdf). That same Kodak manual gives a first dev time of 7:00 min, so the Jobo directions are actually a reduction from Kodak's.
2) The Jobo instructions state 7:30 min for all Fuji films. Kodak, of course has nothing to say about Fuji films .
I have been processing Fuji Velvia and Kodak E100VS for a year or 2 nor in a Jobo CPE-2 following the Jobo instructions. I rate my film at box speed, place my highlights on zone 7 and have not had any problems with blown highlights.

At the very least, I think you should mention that the first dev time can be varied from 5 to 8.5 minutes per Kodak's Z-119.

Also, I just noticed you have the color dev time at 6:00 minutes - I think it is supposed to be 4:00 minutes.

Dan

Rob Landry · Aug 22, 2007

Discpad said:
1) If anything, the first developer time in a Jobo would tend to be a hair shorter, not longer, due to the very vigorous agitation. I use the 75 speed on my ATL-3 for both C-41 & E-6

Actually, Jobo has always recommended 6:30 as a normal time for rotary with Kodak films. They are not sure why this is so, but they suspect that it has to do with the increased oxidation of the developer and/or the small volume of chemicals. Fuji Velvia and old Provia 100 require a 16% increase to the FD if exposed at box speed. Astia/Sensia & Provia 100F require an 8% increase to the FD time.

My own processing has also been in line with these Jobo findings.

When developing E-6, I (almost) always aim low: What you suggest by increasing the temp from 100.0 to 100.4 and 1st dev time from 6:00 to 6:30 will have the cumulative effect of unintentionally pushing the film 1/2 to 2/3 stop, which is the same as overexposing by that amount... With concomitant blown highlights.

Kodak lists 38.0 C or 100.4 F as normal temp for the FD, but 100.0 is within the 0.5 F limit for error. For time, a 30 sec. increase is only 1/4 stop push, 60 sec. is 1/2 stop. It takes 2 full minutes for a full stop push.

Discpad · Aug 22, 2007

Rob Landry said:
Actually, Jobo has always recommended 6:30 as a normal time for rotary with Kodak films. They are not sure why this is so, but they suspect that it has to do with the increased oxidation of the developer and/or the small volume of chemicals. (cut).

Hmmm, I didn't consider exhaustion from the small volume of first dev solution: I run a replenished line, so I always have the volume set to the limit of what the drum holds.

[Even when I run D-76 1:1 as single shot, I always use plenty extra: Developer is cheap, in comparison to the cost of film.]

Jim_in_Kyiv · Aug 22, 2007

Tom and Roger,

I've read this thread with great interest - especially the parts not directly related to the amount of time the film is spent in the developer. Sorry to see the friction, but at the same time - thanks!

After leaving photography aside for a while to develop my writing/editing business, I've found some time and money (simultaneously!) to work on it again, and spent last night setting up a quite small darkroom in a closet. I was pondering E-6 processing, especially given my desire to tinker/'see if I can do it this way'.

Your exchanges (from both sides) brought home to me that there is a time and a place for such things, but also that I need to balance cost/quality/tinkering (chose two?). So no E-6 tray developing, and no screwing around building enlargers out of scrap Voigtlander 6x9 folders. I've got enough projects to keep me busy as it is.

Once again,
Thanks!

Jim

Discpad · Aug 22, 2007

Hi Jim!

I'm glad you're joining the E-6 club -- We need more people like you!

About the issue of the first developer time, it depends a bit on the final use of the film, i.e. will it be scanned, will it be projected onto a screen; and/or will it be printed onto Ilfochrome or have an interneg made for C-prints?

If you scan your tranny to print (as I do), or if you project onto a screen, then, in almost every case, you need to guard against blowing out the highlights, i.e. keeping the highlights low on the shoulder. Also, in many cases, you can adjust the scanner to increase the exposure to "punch through" the extra density down in the toe, if that is needed.

The reason we all shoot chromes to begin with, is to get that full, rich look we just can't quite get with color negs (or with digital, without Photoshop making everything look artificial). That is the reason I recommend the trend downwards of first developer action.

[The analogy to C-41 negs also holds: Photo Engineer recommends shooting 1/3 stop over; in this case to compensate for manufacturing variances down in the toe of the curve. I (essentially) do the same thing by exposing at box speed, then increasing the first dev time from 3:15 to 3:30, giving the film a 1/3rd stop push.]

Jim_in_Kyiv said:
Tom and Roger,

I've read this thread with great interest - especially the parts not directly related to the amount of time the film is spent in the developer. Sorry to see the friction, but at the same time - thanks!

After leaving photography aside for a while to develop my writing/editing business, I've found some time and money (simultaneously!) to work on it again, and spent last night setting up a quite small darkroom in a closet. I was pondering E-6 processing, especially given my desire to tinker/'see if I can do it this way'.

Your exchanges (from both sides) brought home to me that there is a time and a place for such things, but also that I need to balance cost/quality/tinkering (chose two?). So no E-6 tray developing, and no screwing around building enlargers out of scrap Voigtlander 6x9 folders. I've got enough projects to keep me busy as it is.

Once again,
Thanks!

Jim

Jim_in_Kyiv · Aug 22, 2007

Hi Dan,

It's good to be back. I dropped off just after Roger joined APUG. I'd shot a little bit of 4x5/9x12 slide film since it was impossible to find anyone in Kyiv who could handle C-41 in LF at the time. I liked the results, but was more interested in black and white then as I had gotten a taste for it before I moved here.

One of the decisions that came out of reading the thread was that I'll set this darkroom up for B&W as well, and support the local shop that handles E-6 by using them for processing as well as buying film. As Ukraine develops, there's a rising interest in all sorts of photography, so finding the 'consumables' is getting easier here, unlike in much of the world.

Even though I'm not going to develop E-6 myself, I keep things like the points that you mentioned in mind, as I'm taking slides more seriously now. The Moskva V works well enough that I'm sure that the mistakes are operator error; now I need to find out if the Soviets ever made slide projectors that handled 120. Scanning is another issue to dig into, but that's another forum entirely.

Thanks,
Jim

Rob Landry · Aug 22, 2007

I'm glad you're joining the E-6 club -- We need more people like
you!

The more people that get involved in E6 and especially home processing,
the more chances Kodak and Fuji will continue to make the film and
chemicals.

About the issue of the first developer time, it depends a bit on
the final use of the film, i.e. will it be scanned, will it be projected
onto a screen; and/or will it be printed onto Ilfochrome or have an
interneg made for C-prints?

Exactly. While color processing requires a certain level of precision,
ultimately it still comes down to one's personal preference, especially
when we're talking 1/3 and half stop differences. So it's important not
to get hung up on a specific time, what IS important is to find a
process time/temp you like and be consistent about it. If you prefer
your slides a third or half under or over, that's perfectly fine. And as
Dan pointed out, the final use of the transparency can play a part in
how you expose/develop it.

If you scan your tranny to print (as I do), or if you project
onto a screen, then, in almost every case, you need to guard against
blowing out the highlights, i.e. keeping the highlights low on the
shoulder. Also, in many cases, you can adjust the scanner to increase
the exposure to "punch through" the extra density down in the toe, if
that is needed.

Yup, like digital, blowing highlights with slide film is bad. The one
slide film that I find has a broad shoulder is Velvia. I find it handles
highlights better than many other E6 films. Also, since it is so
abundantly saturated, I prefer to slightly overexpose it by a third
stop. Of course, this also helps cut through Velvia's inky black shadows
a little better which eases scanning. I guess this is also why so many
have rated Velvia at ISO 40 over the years.

The reason we all shoot chromes to begin with, is to get that
full, rich look we just can't quite get with color negs (or with
digital, without Photoshop making everything look artificial)

Amen brother, praise the lord

3Dfan · Aug 23, 2007

Rob Landry said:
The one slide film that I find has a broad shoulder is Velvia. I find it handles highlights better than many other E6 films. Also, since it is so abundantly saturated, I prefer to slightly overexpose it by a third stop. Of course, this also helps cut through Velvia's inky black shadows a little better which eases scanning. I guess this is also why so many have rated Velvia at ISO 40 over the years.

That's very interesting. I think I'll have to buy a few rolls. I had always thought a lower contrast film like astia or sensia would be better for protecting highlights. Do your remarks about Velvia and highlights also apply to the other Velvias like 100 & 100F?

dslater · Aug 23, 2007

Discpad said:
The reason we all shoot chromes to begin with, is to get that full, rich look we just can't quite get with color negs (or with digital, without Photoshop making everything look artificial). That is the reason I recommend the trend downwards of first developer action.

Except that reducing your first developer time reduces the saturation of the film.

Discpad said:
[The analogy to C-41 negs also holds: Photo Engineer recommends shooting 1/3 stop over; in this case to compensate for manufacturing variances down in the toe of the curve. I (essentially) do the same thing by exposing at box speed, then increasing the first dev time from 3:15 to 3:30, giving the film a 1/3rd stop push.]

These are not really equivalent at all. Increasing exposure will support your shadow density, while increasing development just raises your highlights without really affecting shadows.

Need suggestions for home E6 processing

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