Need help troubleshooting film developing issue.

TheTrailTog · Nov 13, 2016

So I developed 3 rolls of 120 FP4+ today in Ilfosol 3. The first roll I developed I had loaded 2 weeks ago into a Paterson tank, but company arrived early so I never got to run it that day. It sat out at room temp until this afternoon. That roll came out fine today. A couple days after that roll was loaded I got in a Nikor stainless tank and a handful of Nikor stainless reels. Both of the rolls I ran through the Nikor tank wound up with these undulating scratches down the length of the roll. They are in a wave pattern so I don't see how they could have come from the camera. They were developed with the same chemicals, dilutions, temps, agitation, etc as the roll in the Paterson tank today. The only difference was these two rolls were pulled directly from the fridge, loaded onto the stainless reels, and developed right away. The two "Nikor rolls" were run separately as well, so whatever happened popped up twice. Has anyone seen anything like this or have ideas what it could be?

For reference I used to use steel rolls in the past (Hewes), but during a move I had to sell the darkroom I had at the time. The purchaser wanted my steel reels too and as I was shooting only 35mm at the time, I let them go. Prior to loading today's reels I did one test load with an old junk roll and it was like riding a bike. I had no issues at all loading the 2 scratched reels, so don't see how loading could have caused the scratches.

The first pic is a straight photo and the second is contrast enhanced to better show the scratches.

Truzi · Nov 13, 2016

Someone more knowledgeable than I will chime in shortly, but I suspect you loaded the film too soon after pulling from the fridge. Either stress to the cold emulsion when loading, or problems with the differences in temperature between the film and developer. It may even be something else related to loading the reels - did you use any sort of guide/device when you loaded the reels?

Are these lines, or actual disturbances to the emulsion?

Kirks518 · Nov 13, 2016

Squeegee?

TheTrailTog · Nov 13, 2016

Hi Truzi,

Thanks for chiming in. I used no guide and had no problems seating the ends into the spring or winding the film onto the roll. The temp issue was one thought I had as well, but wasn't sure as I have loaded straight from the fridge before with FP4+ onto plastic reels without issue. When I was using steel reels years ago, I did the same process with Plus-X without issue.

TheTrailTog · Nov 13, 2016

Kirks518 said:
Squeegee?

No squeegee either :-/

Truzi · Nov 13, 2016

When you load a plastic wheel, the film pretty much gets pushed straight in with little to no bending. To load steel reels you have to slightly bend or curve the film longitudinally. It probably depends on how cold the film was.

TheTrailTog · Nov 13, 2016

We keep our fridge on the colder side. If the temp was causing an emulsion cracking, would that have resulted in the wave scratch pattern though? Perhaps the wave is the result of my method of separating a section from the backing and then spooling?

Harry Stevens · Nov 14, 2016

Here is a photograph from a 35m roll I took in 1995 I accidentally introduced very cold water after the 20c developing stage and I remember swearing out loud when I realized what I had just done......Thermal shock the entire roll and amongst it all I can see similar wavy lines to yours.

TheTrailTog · Nov 14, 2016

Hi Harry,

My negs have the line scratches, but are no crazing. I stuck a thermometer in my film drawer overnight and it's 37F. It was only about 10 minutes between removing from the fridge, loading on the reel, and then starting developing. My prewash and developer were 68F, while the stop bath and fixer were about 60F (they're kept in the basement). Again, I've had no issues doing this in the past with plastic reels. I have only ever had it happen on these 2 steel reels.

tedr1 · Nov 14, 2016

Perhaps static electricity caused the lines? Cold objects can be a problem with friction, the combination causes static charge to be generated. The metal reels conduct electricity plastic reels don't. Remedy? - allow the film to stabilize at room temperature before opening.

TheTrailTog · Nov 14, 2016

Hi tedr1,

I had considered that too as a possibility. However, I would think static would produce exposure issues on the film like a light leak, but these are actual scratches. The film should be ready for scanning this evening and will see if that reveals anything.

tedr1 · Nov 14, 2016

If they are physical scratches I misunderstood. Then perhaps the cause is the metal reels, are there some sharp edges?

jimjm · Nov 14, 2016

Why do you store film in the fridge before loading it onto reels? I'm going to guess that curling the cold film lengthwise to load it onto the reels caused stress that then became reticulation cracking when you poured the 68 degree chemicals in the tank. It's best that the film be as close to the temp of your chemicals as possible to start with.

When loading onto plastic reels you don't have to curl the film lengthwise like you did here.

Harry Stevens · Nov 14, 2016

When I develop a roll out the fridge I let the film sit to obtain room temperature also same when I take an unexposed out the freezer for the camera.

Gerald C Koch · Nov 18, 2016

The only problem with the stress theory is that the marks would would be dark on the negatives and not lighter. Stress on the film would cause fogging at the stress points.

Gerald C Koch · Nov 18, 2016

tedr1 said:
Perhaps static electricity caused the lines? Cold objects can be a problem with friction, the combination causes static charge to be generated. The metal reels conduct electricity plastic reels don't. Remedy? - allow the film to stabilize at room temperature before opening.

Static discharge on a film causes very distinctive star like patterns which the samples do not show.

TheTrailTog · Nov 18, 2016

Thanks again everyone for your input

The scratches/cracks/whatever are on the back side of the film only, not the emulsion side. I did recall that I misspoke early on. The 2 rolls on the steel reels were pulled at the same time. The one that was immediately loaded and developed did exhibit more of the issue than the second roll that was out for a half hour longer before being processed. To me, this helps to add credibility to the temp stress causing cracking of the film.

As to why I put my exposed rolls into the fridge, I do this because it can quite frequently be months after shooting before I develop a roll. I generally don't like to develop right away. I like "rediscovering" shots. I have some 35mm in the fridge that is pushing 2 years since I shot it and at this point I don't have a clue as to what is on the film. I get excited about taking shots, get forgetful/careless when it comes to developing the shots, but get excited again when it comes to printing a good shot... If that makes sense.

Leigh B · Nov 19, 2016

The issue is not the delay between the shoot and the processing.

The issue is the delay between taking the film out of the fridge and processing it.

You need to allow enough time for the film to come up to room temperature, all the way to the middle of the roll.
That would progress more rapidly if you would load the film into the processing tank and then let it sit for half an hour.

- Leigh

Doremus Scudder · Nov 19, 2016

Leigh B said:
You need to allow enough time for the film to come up to room temperature, all the way to the middle of the roll.
That would progress more rapidly if you would load the film into the processing tank and then let it sit for half an hour.

- Leigh

...which may not be the best idea if your humidity level is high. You risk condensation forming on the film which can leave marks. Best is to let the film come to room temperature before loading reels. Even better is to not refrigerate exposed film at all. Most black-and-white films will keep just fine at room temperature for months between exposure and processing (some even years...). Sure, it's best to process promptly, but a few weeks at room temp won't hurt a thing. Refrigeration, especially in humid climates, risks condensation marks.

Best,

Doremus

Leigh B · Nov 19, 2016

Doremus Scudder said:
Even better is to not refrigerate exposed film at all.

Hi Doremus.

I agree completely. The problem here is the refrigeration.

No correction would be required had it not been refrigerated in the first place.

- Leigh

Rudolf Karachun · Nov 20, 2016

The same issue I had with the 4x5 a some time ago. l did not keep film in the refrigerator. Not the freezer kawsing the problem. In my opinion this is a manufacturer defect. Actually in my case the scratches dudnt affect the printing. They are not visible on the paper. At list when enlargement not too big.

Europan · Nov 20, 2016

Xia_Ke said:
I generally don't like to develop right away. I like "rediscovering" shots. I have some 35mm in the fridge that is pushing 2 years since I shot it and at this point I don't have a clue as to what is on the film. I get excited about taking shots, get forgetful/careless when it comes to developing the shots, but get excited again when it comes to printing a good shot... If that makes sense.

For me as a former operator of a commercial film lab that is beyond comprehension. You are getting your deserved punishment. Do not mess with time.

But let me be polite. When I had the lab, I think it was in 2005, somebody called me to pass the information that a late cameraman’s house is being cleared out and one might find interesting stuff for cheap. I went there and indeed found some parts. The 16-mm. film projector I picked is long gone since, a crappy EIKI. But among other things there were a few hundred feet of exposed black and white 35-mm. negative film. Guess what I did, I developed it. On one of the can labels I could read the expiration date of the stock, something of 1968. So after 37 years good images came into being. Funnily, some parts were double exposed in two directions which gave me the idea that the good guy must have messed up the rolls down in time.

TheTrailTog · Nov 20, 2016

Europan said:
For me as a former operator of a commercial film lab that is beyond comprehension. You are getting your deserved punishment. Do not mess with time.

Well, apparently a good percentage of this forum deserve it too...

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Agulliver · Nov 21, 2016

I have always understood that one should not fridge or freeze exposed film. The advice has always been to develop as soon as possible after exposure, and not to chill or freeze the exposed film as the exposed emulsion can be affected upon warming it up to room temperature. The concern is mostly condensation damaging the latent image, or so I am lead to believe.

With B&W film unless it's Delta 3200 or Tmax 3200, I've never worried about protecting it after exposure. Often I am able to process mine a day or two after exposure but sometimes it's weeks. In 2015 I finally located a roll of Acupan 200 that I shot around a decade earlier...it had become lost behind the sofa (yes, really). I developed it allowing an extra 30 seconds or so for luck and the negatives came out wonderfully. I'd say that if your preference is to leave your films a few months or even years between camera and chemicals, it ought to be OK provided you're shooting at 400ASA or lower. Probably it would be OK at faster speeds too.

TheTrailTog · Nov 21, 2016

Not sure it's a preference thing, it just seems to be that's how my work flow goes. I had never read anything negative (slight pun intended) about putting exposed film back in the fridge/freezer. I've been shooting 99% film for about 9 years now and this was the first time I have encountered any issue with negs getting damaged other than being in a hurry and accidentally having a roll bind in a Paterson reel, which left some kink marks. Just developed 2 rolls of Tri-X 35mm yesterday which were from a trip taken back in May of 2014, though I did make sure this time to let them warm up to room temp for about an hour before loading and developing.

Need help troubleshooting film developing issue.

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