Need help on Sinar F2 4X5

[Harold Wingo]

I'm looking for answers and some help regarding factory instructions (recommendations) on focusing and obtaining DoF calculations. Are there any Sinar F2 4X5 users out there that would feel comfortable fielding questions dealing with factory instructions? I realize there are many ways to "skin a cat" but I would like to strictly address factory instructions.

Thanks

Harold

 

[Shmoo]

I think this page will help. It shows how to use the DOF calculator on the Sinar F2.

http://www.sinar.ch/site/index__gast-e-1831-52-1956.html

 

[Harold Wingo]

Thanks for your reply, however, I am already aware of how to set the depth of field. My question resides with, "Why I need to turn the fine adjustment back 1/2 the f-stop?" but more importantly, when I turn the fine adjustment back 1/2 the f-stop (e.g., f22 back to f11) my GG is no longer in focus . . . anywhere. It's my understanding that when viewing the GG, WYSIWYG and if that's the case, then my image will be out of focus because the my image on the GG is out of focus once I set the fine adjustment back 1/2 the designated f-stop.

Would you care to comment on that please?

Harold

 

[Sparky]

are you certain you zeroed it out to begin with?? That would make a big difference!

 

[Harold Wingo]

Hi Sparky,
Thanks for replying. These factory instructions are driving me crazy. The answer to your question is, "Yes". Before I go any further, for what it's worth I am mainly using NIKKOR f5.6 210mm lens for landscape work though I do own a Schneider f5.6 90mm and a Schneider f5.6 72mm lens. Allow me to explain how I have been attempting to apply factory instruction for focusing and DoF.

Focusing the camera:

First I zero everything which include standards, and levels. Next focusing on the bottom dotted line on the GG I bring my distant object into focus. Next I set my degree-angle barrel to zero. Focusing on the top dotted line I turn the fine adjustment knob until the near object comes into focus. Now I read the degree number off the barrel and apply that degree by tilting the front standard to the degree indicated and lock the "brakes" on the tilt so nothing moves. Next I refocus the GG on my intended subject for sharpness. That should take care of setting the focus . . . and for the most part it does.

Setting DoF:

Since all distant objects are in focus I make sure that my DoF ring is set to zero and then turn the fine adjustment knob until my near subject is in focus. *Note* Often times my near object is not placed at the top of the GG so where ever I find my near object I focus on that and bring that object into focus. Next I read the f-stop setting on the DoF ring and apply that to my lens aperture. Next I turn the fine adjustment knob back 2 f-stops (or 1/2 the number of my aperture setting). That should take care of setting the DoF.

Here's the kicker! When I open my lens to f5.6 just to view the GG, nothing is in focus . . . and I do mean NOTHING. As I begin to stop down, objects begin to take shape but at say f32 or f45 or greater, I can no longer see to tell if my image is getting sharp or if the image is sharp. If, for example, the DoF ring indicated that I should use f8, and after setting the aperture to f8 and turning the fine adjustment knob to f4, the GG is still not in focus. I have found myself needing to refocus for sharpness after having turned the fine focus knob back 2 f-stops all the while *assuming* that since I have set the aperture to the recommended setting that everything I want to be in focus *will be in focus* when using the recommended aperture setting.

So my problem is, the GG is far less in focus (actually it's totally out of focus) with the aperture wide open after turning the fine adjustment back 2 f-stops than it was when the aperture was wide open prior to attempting to determine DoF.

As a question, for what reasons is it necessary to trun the fine adjustment knob back only 2 f-stops? Why can't I simply read off the DoF that would be required to have a near object in focus then turn the knob back from where I started then apply the reccomended aperature setting? At least the GG would be in focus! I'm sure there's a reason it's not done this way or otherwise Sinar would not have given "marching orders" as they have.

Harold

 

[Jerevan]

If I read you correctly, that's exactly how optimum DoF work. Of course the GG will be out of focus when you look at it f5.6 wide open after setting the optimum DoF. What you do is that you ensure that the thing you focused on at say 2.3 meters away will be in focus (and everything else front to back, as you have ensured optimum focus) when you stop down. Are you sure when doing what you do now, that you get photographs that are out of focus?

 

[Harold Wingo]

Hi Jerevan!

Such a quick response which is much appreciated!!

The answer to your question is, "No". I have been terribly confused and have not attempted to shoot a picture using these directions. I have been basically focusing the GG for sharpness then randomly applying f32 or f45 with hopes that my image will be crisp. I have been led to believe that when viewing the GG, WYSIWYG and since the GG was even less in focus after I applied DoF settings then I thought it totally useless to waste a sheet of film fearing it would end up looking like what I was seeing on my GG at wide open aperture.

Would you please comment further on why it looks so bad on the GG but just may end up perfect on the film? I would really appreciate your counsel as I yet have a great deal to learn. I have had success focusing the camera by simply focusing until the image is sharp on the GG then randomly stopping down to f32 or f45 to get a good DoF. But I want to learn more because this camera is capable of much more than the way I have been using it.

Thanks,
Harold

 

[Jerevan]

Well, optimum DoF can seem quite confusing and backwards, especially on a GG screen. The photo will look good because everything between "here and there" is acceptably sharp. The point at which you focussed on, in my example, at 2.3 meters will still be the sharpest point even if it doesn't look like it on the GG. As a rule, you will have more DoF behind the 2.3 meter point than in front of it.

The DoF knob on the Sinar works with the same principle as the DoF scale on a smaller camera lens. If you didn't have that you would have to resort to tricks as stopping the lens down very much or else have a DoF table with you.

There are many informative pages explaining DoF, but I found this to be helpful, if quite basic, in understanding the optimum DoF and what hyperfocal focusing can do. Dead Link Removed

Hopefully this will explain things a bit better with pictures than I am able to do with words. If not, get back and ask more questions!

 

[Harold Wingo]

Hi Jerevan,

I was hoping you would offer an explanation and you have! This lifts my spirits. I had hopes that by stopping down the lens to the recommended f-stop (once everything had been focused properly) would take care of the seemingly "out of focus problem" . . . . even if the GG was so dark I couldn't tell if my image was in focus.

It would appear that this is a case where one must "trust their instruments and the manufacturer's instructions". Having lived in Alaska and sailed Alaskan waters, dense fog and bad weather can quickly be upon you and in conditions where sight is totally obliterated by dense fog or heavy rain and snow, one must trust their instruments to bring the vessel to safe harbor. I suppose this is one of those times. I will expose a sheet of film and see if the results are acceptable and report my efforts.

Thanks to all for reading my plea and taking the time to respond.

Harold

 

[Jerevan]

Yes, in this case, it is really a matter of "trusting the instruments". Frankly, I've never thought of it in that way. You always learn something new.

 

[Harold Wingo]

I'm really simple minded and it takes those kinds of experiences for such analogies to make it through my thick skull.

Harold

 

[edtbjon]

Hi!
It seems like you are getting there, i.e. getting confidence in your camera. We have all been there.
Now, to simplify things, try to learn and master one thing at a time. Try the DoF first and then the tilt/swing and last the combination. The DOF planes get quite messed up when you introduce tilts and swings. I.e. it's not easy to tell why certain things happen.
If you set up some well lit "scool examples" and practice on them you will gain in confidence and will also have time on your side when shooting "real shots". S:t Ansel himself almost missed "Moonrise Hernandez" and a few seconds later when trying to get a second shot with better exposure, the light was gone.
I use a Sinar F2 myself and I really love the tilt/swing and DoF scales. I think that the Sinar is about the most simple LF camera to use. That combined with it also being one of the most able, stable and versatile cameras makes it awsome. But the tool and the craft does take some learning.

 

[Harold Wingo]

I took the camera out this afternoon and after some experimentation "things popped". I set up in a field using a barn as my subject. Thinking that I was far enough away that swings wouldn't be a factor I focused, set the front tilt to 4.5 deg., then attempted to set DoF. Basically it was close but not what I expected so I re-zeroed the camera and began again. Again, the tilt was set at 4.5+ deg., and I maneuvered through DoF. When I rotated the FF adjustment back 2 f-stops I was again disappointed. The third time I decided to add swings. I focused and again the degree drum indicated 4.5+ degrees so I was confident that front tilt was correct. After setting front tilt I refocused on the subject and this time applied swing. The drum indicated 2+ degrees so this was set on the front standard, I re-focused on the subject and set about determining DoF. After focusing on the near object the DoF scale indicated f11 so this was set on the lens. However, this time when I rotated the FF adjustment back 2 stops everything "popped". Right on the button.

In the past, I thought I was shooting head-on (or I thought I was far enough away) and swing was not necessary. I think this may be where I have been making a consistent mistake because it surely popped when I applied swing.

I will attempt several more subjects then expose a sheet of film.

If, when using the loupe, the intended subject is not quite crisp after DoF has been set, is it permissible to use the front FF adjustment to bring the subject into crisp focus?

Harold

 

[JohnArs]

Hi Harold
If, when using the loupe, the intended subject is not quite crisp after DoF has been set, is it permissible to use the front FF adjustment to bring the subject into crisp focus?
Of course Harold!
Only on the P Sinars you have the luxus of very seldom to refocus!
And the groundglas is still wysiwyg and to controll in daylight you can stop down to maybe 1 stop less and if its sharp almost everywhere it will get sharp with one stop more, or it its not to dark you look at the groundglass with the perfekt f stop and all should be sharp its still the proof if you did not a mistake!
The proof is always on the screen, but sometimes it is very difficult to get DOF all over the picture and then it can be needed f 64 or at least f 45!
And if the DOF calculater gives you very strange advises it could be defectiv as I have 2 of them on my 3 Sinars!
Always trust on your eyes never really trust on tools!
My 2 cents, Armin

 

[Harold Wingo]

Gruß Gott Armin!

Vielen Dank! As you know, I have been struggling for nearly 7 years to understand the mechanics of the F2. Every time I grab the bull by the tail, I get the horns (jedesmal wenn Ich den Bullen beim Schwanz halte, krieg Ich die Hoerner). :rolleyes:

Still, I endeavor to learn and over time it pays off. I have always choked on large bites so mama always made me take small bites and chew my food well before I swallow. I guess my mama knows best. The problem is, these days it takes so long to chew my food and the older I get the longer it takes. Mein Computer (Mein Gehirn) ist schlecht.

I really believe that learning all the "In's & Out's" of the Sinar F2 System will someday pay large dividends.

Have a good day!

Harold

 

[NikoSperi]

Zero-detentes

Harold,
Just a thought; are you sure that when you zero everything with the bubble levels, your zero on the swing are actually "zero"? Your mention that only once you applied swing did things "pop" reminded me that when I checked the standards on my F2, the zero clicks were close, but they are not more than that. Might be worth while checking that the standards are actually parallel with a ruler when you have centered the swing.

On an unrelated note, it seems that descibing the Sinar Dof gizmo takes about 10 times the effort of actually using it!

 

[JohnArs]

Grüss Gott Harold
Your german has improved quite a bit so will also the handling of the Sinar!

Aber ich würde niemals einen Stier (Bullen) am Schwanz halten, allerhöchstens am Halfter mit dem Nasenring, so hat ihn jeweils mein Onkel unter kontrolle gehabt!

Have a very good time, Armin

 

[Harold Wingo]

Hello Niko,

No I haven't checked that but will give that a go as well. Your right! It takes longer to explain DoF calculator than it does going through the procedures.


Harold

 

[Shmoo]

I was reminded by an instructor that with a fixed focal length lens on an SLR, if you focus on your subject, about 1/3 of the DOF is behind the subject and 2/3rds is in front. By finding the rear-most in-focus part of your image and then the front-most in-focus part of your image, you are setting those boundaries. Then you just dial back 1/2 or so. It's like doing the fixed-focal length SLR thing in reverse...

 

[Harold Wingo]

Hi Guys,
Just want to say thank you for "hanging in there" with me on this issue. I pretty much have a handle on my confusion. Until something else comes us, I should no longer have any excuses for not making acceptable images.

Thanks for all you responses and help.

Harold