Need help in identifying lens

StephenT · Apr 21, 2016

This lens came in a Schneider Xenar box. The lens was included with a B&J 4x5 Press camera but it certainly won't fit in the standard. It was purchased off eBay from someone who got the package at an estate sale. (Might be a lesson for some of us regarding how to dispose of our precious "things" while we are still above ground).

I'm now familiar with Steinheil and the 1856/66 Periskop and Aplanat designations. The Rapid would correspond to the 4.5 that is embossed on the box, and the 105 seems reasonable for the focal length, but I've never seen a Schneider that looked like this little lens.

The lens cleaned up well, and I CLA'd the shutter and it now works well.

Could this lens be from a medium format folder? Any idea of it's age? If so, I'll make up a lensboard for my Century Graphic 2x3 and see if I can figure out where infinity focus is.

Dan Daniel · Apr 21, 2016

I would not trust that the box is original to the lens. The Schneider typography sure looks like 1950s or later while the lens looks like 1920s or so.

Any serial numbers on lens? Do they match any of the numbers on the box?

EdColorado · Apr 22, 2016

I've seen these before but really don't know anything about them. When I've seen them however, they were on early 1900's folders. As said above, the box and the lens don't match.

StephenT · Apr 22, 2016

Dan, the lens does not have any serial numbers.

I just noticed that the picture of the front of the lens does not show that the shutter is an AGC. Glare is obscuring the logo.

I find it odd that the fstop plate doesn't show the aperture scale numbers below f11?? At f11, the lens is only stopped down about 1/3 of the way. There's almost as much movement from f11 to wide open as there is from f11 to f44.

I agree that the box just doesn't appear to go with the vintage of the lens.

shutterfinger · Apr 22, 2016

Researching A Lens Collectors Vade Mecum for the words on the face of the lens there are 3 potential manufacturers, 1. Grubb of Ireland, made camera lens for a time but mostly telescope lens. Aplanat listed but probably barrel lens only; 2. Steinhiel of Germany, made from 1866 to the early 1900's; 3. Rodenstock of Germany, turn of the century Rapid Rectilinear type made for many years, a single mention of a Periscop. Now finally from Camerapedia is the Vario Shutter made by Gauthier based in Calmbach, Germany. Most Vario shutters have the exact speed settings as on yours. Conclusion: it is a Steinhiel or Rodenstock lens from the WWI era.

Ian Grant · Apr 22, 2016

Judging by the bottom end Vario shutter and lack of a manufacturers name it's quite a bottom end lens. Ica used Aplanat Periskop lenses later named Preiskop Alpha on 6x9 and 9x12 cameras as the budget lens, it's a Doublet so only two elements, they weren't made by Steinhiel who's similar lens was a Periscop, as was Rodenstocks, The spelling is important.

It's worth noting that the Vade Mecum incorrectlty lists the ICA Periskop Apha as Periscop a spelling mistake. ICA sold cameras with the f11 Periskop lens up until their merger into Zeiss Ikon.

Ian

nanthor · Apr 22, 2016

I agree that it is most likely a bottom-end lens but these can sometimes produce wonderful pictures with unmatchable character. I hope the OP gets a chance to test it and can let use see the results!

Ian Grant · Apr 22, 2016

It's likely to be from somewhere around 1912 to 1918, the Vario shutter was first sold in 1912 and by1918 the f11 was called a Periskop Alpha rather than Rapid Aplanat Periskop. An aperture of f11 was no longer a rapid lens by the end of WWII.

Ian

StephenT · Apr 22, 2016

Wow! What great information - MANY thanks to all posters for sharing your knowledge and love of photography.

I fabricated a lensboard for my Century Graphic and will indeed give the little lens a test. The lens is indeed two elements, and it cleaned up to like new condition. I suspect that the problem with the shutter (now corrected) relegated the lens to a drawer.

Does anybody have any idea of the focal length? I am guessing somewhere in the 100mm area. Why would the fstop scale not include the larger apertures, but only from f11 to f44?? Too much distortion wide open and only f11 and smaller recommended? Maybe I have a perfect "soft focus" lens??

I'm going to get that publication Vade Mecum - the $15 will be well spent - thank you shutterfinger for mentioning it.

Ian Grant · Apr 22, 2016

It's possibly the 10.5cm Periskop lens, there was also a 14.5cm again f11, the Extra Rapid Aplanat Helios was an f8 lens. It's possible these lenses were made by Zeiss as they had a stake in ICA.

The lens is limited to f11 because of its design - look at the diameter of the element. It's not unusual for some lenses to only utilise part of the aperture scale, the 90mm f6.8 Angulon amd the simlar 90,, f6.8 Raptar Wide angle for instance, it's because the same shutters are often used with much faster lenses.

Ian

StephenT · Apr 22, 2016

Ian, so should I only open the lens up fully for focusing, and then close down to f11 or smaller for shooting? It is a pretty small diameter lens for sure - I imagine the results of shooting wide open would be less than perfect. I will give it a go, just to see what happens to the image on the negative. Focusing at f11 on the little fellow would indeed be challenging.

I now have it all mounted up with the infinity stops adjusted - I had to move the stops all the way to the end of the rail. The focusing vernier seems relatively accurate with this lens. Since one of the body's ground glass back latches is missing, I'll be using an RB67 back with the camera. I'll carry the ground glass with me, but will most likely use the vernier scale for landscape shots. It looks like a really fun little camera. I like giving new life to old things - maybe some day someone will do the same for me!

Ian Grant · Apr 22, 2016

Stephen, I suspect that the lens will be limited to f11 by the diameter of the front and rear elements so opening the aperture wider will have little or no effect. I have a similar (un-named) lens on a Kershaw camera. You need good ground glass to focus a slow lens like that but ir's possible I use a141,, f16 Ross Protar on 10x8 and it's relatively easy to focus.

It won't be a stellar performer at any aperture, think in terms of more like a Petzval it won't be as swirly but you could get some interesting results.

Ian

shutterfinger · Apr 22, 2016

StephenT said:
Since one of the body's ground glass back latches is missing

Do you have the broken off retainer somewhere? I have successfully reattached these in the past.

To find the lens info in the Vade I looked up each term on the lens in the index to get the company reference then scanned through the company's listing until I found the lens name or it was mentioned. The Vade is based on lens that were available in the UK, not all lens made.

Ian Grant · Apr 22, 2016

shutterfinger said:
Do you have the broken off retainer somewhere? I have successfully reattached these in the past.

To find the lens info in the Vade I looked up each term on the lens in the index to get the company reference then scanned through the company's listing until I found the lens name or it was mentioned. The Vade is based on lens that were available in the UK, not all lens made.

That's why it's the Vague Mecum To be fair most lenses US and European were sold in the UK or advertised in the BJP Almanacs. The lens in question here is there but mis-spelt.

Since the Vade Mecum was put online a huge amount of original primary source material has been put on the Internet, the only trustworthy data is in Academic terms primary source from the people/companies involved. The Vade Mecum desperately needs updating and correcting.

Ian

StephenT · Apr 22, 2016

shutterfinger, unfortunately the retainer was missing when I acquired the camera. Judging from the posts that are still there, it appears that it just worked itself loose. The posts don't look like they were peened well. I'm wondering how to make one - I have woodworking tools but not metal fabrication ones. Any ideas?

Ian, I'm thinking that with such slow shutter speeds (1/25, 1/50, 1/100) and a range of f11 to f44 that my best choice with film speed would be in the 400 range for outdoor daylight shooting. Would you agree? Flash appears out of the questions since, other than B or T, there is no way to sync a flash.

Ian Grant · Apr 22, 2016

Post pictures of what's broken, I have boxes full of parts, so do orhers

I think I'd use the lens in decent weather with 100 EI film, keep it as wide open as possible to draw out its character and play on it's faults. I have seen images made with this lens

Ian

shutterfinger · Apr 22, 2016

ISO400 film is very good for testing as it shows light leaks and exposure errors easily. You would need a support to shoot slower films with those speeds and apertures.

The Graflok slider mount screws attach to metal plates that hold the bellows in position. Remove them then punch out the rivets as they broke. Drill the holes out with a #51 drill bit then tap with a #2-56 tap. Install screws with a nut on the inside cutting the screw flush with the nut then reassemble the bellows/graflok sliders. Make a new latch retainer from hardened steel using the existing retainer as a template. The retainer rivets break in a fair percentage of the bodies. The body is Bakelite so handle carefully when drilling, taping, tightening.

Need help in identifying lens

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency