Need Help: EI Kodak Black & White Orthochromatic Sound Recording Film 2378e

Ian Faisal · Mar 27, 2017

Hello,

Anyone ever shoot with Kodak Black & White Orthochromatic Sound Recording Film 2378e, i have 400ft of these film

Anyone know how much the ASA/EI?

please help...

Ian

Europan · Mar 27, 2017

Lab films are not made to an exposure index, say sensitivity amount. Sensitivity can vary from batch to batch.
Labs therefore do scales to determine a batch’s speed and the stock they use from. But to help you a little
I’d assume something around 12 ISO.

Ian Faisal · Mar 27, 2017

Europan said:
Lab films are not made to an exposure index, say sensitivity amount. Sensitivity can vary from batch to batch.
Labs therefore do scales to determine a batch’s speed and the stock they use from. But to help you a little
I’d assume something around 12 ISO.

wow thanks Europan for fast reply
i wonder could I develop this film in D-76, becasu from the data sheet the Developer called D-97

frobozz · Mar 27, 2017

I've played around with a handful of B&W lab films. I came to the conclusion (I forget why) that Selectol (not Selectol-Soft, but the long-discontinued Selectol) paper developer was as close as I was going to get to D-97 without resorting to mixing my own from component chems. I found a cache of ancient cans of the stuff for my experiments, but I think Photographer's Formulary also sells it. It worked fine.

On the other hand, D-76 (I used ID-11) also worked fine, and I already have that mixed up for more normal films. And because you're using this well outside its intended application and are having to do all kinds of carefully controlled tests to determine the best ISO and development time and so on, what does it matter? Use something, anything, and stick with that.

Duncan

Gerald C Koch · Mar 27, 2017

Since the film is orthochromatic why not just develop it by inspection until you find the correct ISO and development time.

Kino · Mar 27, 2017

I'd rate it at ASA 6 and go from there. Most lab stocks are very, very slow and are blasted with tungsten light for exposure.

BTW: this stock was for recording Variable Area tracks and has a native gamma of about 2.40 to 2.60 VS your typical .65 gamma camera original negative.

Hope you feel "arty"...

Europan · Mar 29, 2017

Willi Beutler used document films, as they were called at the time, microfilms. He developed a developer formula together with Tetenal, out came the two Neofin concentrates. Almost nothing happened until Detlef Ludwig provided the Gigabit film system. His formula made it possible to develop Gigabitfilm, a family of very contrasty films, to any gamma down to 0.35 at full maximal density. To develop a sound recording film for imaging, one loses at least one full stop of sensitivity. I have tried a formula from the 19th century on a microfilm with success. I got a thin and soft negative that prints nicely. As long as Gigabitfilm is not revived we have to try out.

nworth · Mar 29, 2017

I don't have the data for this articular film, but sound recording films come in two varieties: those designed for variable density recording and those designed for variable area recording. Variable density recording needs a film a lot like ordinary negative film; variable area film needs to be very high contrast.

Gerald C Koch · Mar 29, 2017

Europan said:
Willi Beutler used document films, as they were called at the time, microfilms. He developed a developer formula together with Tetenal, out came the two Neofin concentrates. Almost nothing happened until Detlef Ludwig provided the Gigabit film system. His formula made it possible to develop Gigabitfilm, a family of very contrasty films, to any gamma down to 0.35 at full maximal density. To develop a sound recording film for imaging, one loses at least one full stop of sensitivity. I have tried a formula from the 19th century on a microfilm with success. I got a thin and soft negative that prints nicely. As long as Gigabitfilm is not revived we have to try out.

The Neofin developers have a long and complex history. Neofin Blue was developed specifically for the Adox films by Schleussner Photowerke. Production was later taken over by Tenenal. The two Neofin developers may have been based on the work of Willi Beutler but that appears to be his only connection.

I have a list of developers designed for microfilm said to produce a contrast suitable for general photography. After trying most of them I have found none that are completely satisfactory. Best results were obtained with H&W Control developer.

From my reading of an old Neofin Blue data sheet the developer was intended for slow continuous tone films and not microfilms. I got superb results with Kodak Panatomic-X. The Neofin developers were developed as acutance developers, Neofin Blue for slow ISO 125 or less and Neofin Red for faster films. Certainly using them at the usual dilution 1+1+8 will not tame the contrast of high contrast films. I've tried it using Agfa Copex film.

Kino · Mar 29, 2017

nworth said:
I don't have the data for this articular film, but sound recording films come in two varieties: those designed for variable density recording and those designed for variable area recording. Variable density recording needs a film a lot like ordinary negative film; variable area film needs to be very high contrast.

Yes, the 2378e is for Variable Area and is typically developed in D97 at approximately 2.40 gamma; the VD tracks are duped on regular dupe neg stock, like 2234 at normal processing gammas in the .65 range.

Europan · Apr 1, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
Best results were obtained with H&W Control developer.

Interesting read

Ian Grant · Apr 1, 2017

Europan said:
Willi Beutler used document films, as they were called at the time, microfilms. He developed a developer formula together with Tetenal, out came the two Neofin concentrates. Almost nothing happened until Detlef Ludwig provided the Gigabit film system. His formula made it possible to develop Gigabitfilm, a family of very contrasty films, to any gamma down to 0.35 at full maximal density. To develop a sound recording film for imaging, one loses at least one full stop of sensitivity. I have tried a formula from the 19th century on a microfilm with success. I got a thin and soft negative that prints nicely. As long as Gigabitfilm is not revived we have to try out.

Hans Windisch states that the Beutler developer was for use with slow films, not micro-films, and when Tetenal released Neofyn (later rchanging the spelling to Neofin) there were the two versions Neofin Blue and Neofin Red, one for slow films the other for fast films. But Willi Beutler's developer and the two Neofin developers are for normal contrast films, Tetenal also made a low contrast developer for document/micro films Dokumol.

Ian

Ian Faisal · Apr 3, 2017

now i have eastman 2378e in my hand

i thik i will rate it in iso 3-25, the i will develop it with d76 , modivide d-76 then add some soidum carbonate and pottasium bromide to get equivalent to D-97

H&W develeper, never heard of it.
i live in Indonesia that some chemical is hardly to find

Gerald C Koch · Apr 4, 2017

Ian Faisal said:
H&W develeper, never heard of it.
i live in Indonesia that some chemical is hardly to find

Nothing exotic in H&W Control as it is a PQ developer using sodium carbonate as the alkali. If you can mix your own then there would be problems.

However I fear that you will not be able to get anything near normal contrast with this film from D-97 or D-76.

studiocarter · Apr 9, 2017

Jobo made 110 reels that fit 16mm movie film, about 4 feet, good enough in shorter lengths to do tests. 300 ml is enough to do a bracket test in this, that, or the other developer. One Shot, a Rodinal, 1:50 works great.

Craig75 · Apr 9, 2017

if its high contrast try low contrast caffenol recipe. it def works with agfa copex microfilm so its worth a bash and ingredients are very cheap and easy to find.

Gerald C Koch · Apr 9, 2017

studiocarter said:
Jobo made 110 reels that fit 16mm movie film, about 4 feet, good enough in shorter lengths to do tests. 300 ml is enough to do a bracket test in this, that, or the other developer. One Shot, a Rodinal, 1:50 works great.

You can also get 110 (16 mm) SS reels. Two will fit nicely in a single 35 roll SS tank. You need two rolls to prevent "pistoning" that would occur with a single during inversion.

Petraio Prime · Apr 10, 2017

Ian Faisal said:
Hello,

Anyone ever shoot with Kodak Black & White Orthochromatic Sound Recording Film 2378e, i have 400ft of these film

Anyone know how much the ASA/EI?

please help...

Ian

No, it's not for pictorial use.

georgegrosu · Apr 17, 2017

Careful!
Negatives sound produced after ~ year 2000 have photocopied on the middle of film same written about 10 cm.
These negative sound can not use in other purposes than for making sound negatives.
This method of writing on the middle of the film I heard that uses and negatives sound Agfa.
Develop a piece of unexposed film in any b&w developer that you have and see the situation.

George

Ian Faisal · Jul 12, 2017

Kodak eastman 2738e develop in Parodinal set to asa 12

when the result came out its like a magic

Gerald C Koch · Jul 13, 2017

Any general developer like D-76 or Rodinal cloe is going to provide excessive contrast. This is why I suggested H&W Control developer as it was specifically formulated for use with high contrast films.

Need Help: EI Kodak Black & White Orthochromatic Sound Recording Film 2378e

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