Need help deciding on a medium format camera

JCook0113 · Nov 11, 2017

Hello, I just joined this forum so bare with me please I hope Im posting this is the right spot as well. Anyway, I am deciding between 3 or 4 cameras, The pentax 645, mamiya 1000s, and surprisingly the rb67. That is about my price range so if there are any other cameras you recommend feel free to post. I am mainly wanting a medium format camera for architecture, and some landscape so Im in no hurry but I would rather not use a tripod. I do have one but its just annoying. I don't mind slowing down but there are times where I have to take the picture pretty quick but most of the time I don't. To be honest, I am not sure if I will need interchangeable backs or not because I have never used a camera like this before so I guess I will take your word for that and I have had thoughts about wanting one on my 35mm lol. I know that the Pentax system has a built in light meter which I hear is very good but the mamiya doesn't so i don't know how long it takes to use a light meter or how expensive a good simple light meter costs? Also, looking around at photos taken by these, I can't seem to find good photos taken with the pentax, i don't know if it's because i just don't like how the pentax looks compared to the 1000s or if no one is posting great photos on flickr and such. But I did find some super amazing shots on youtube from the pentax 645n, I think they have the same quality? I also did however find great photos taken with the 1000s and amazing photos with the rb67. So if anyone has some stellar shots with the pentax or any of them please post them. Sorry for sounding like such a noob but i guess I just am. I hope thats enough information for you to help me with this decision and if you need any more just ask below, I usually respond pretty quick. Thanks.

Paul Howell · Nov 11, 2017

The RB is a good choice for architerure as it has a built in bellows, nice range of lens at lest one shift lens. Other option, a baby Speed or Crown, better yet Horseman or Lindfoff, with more movement than a Speed or Crown, use either a ground glass or rangefinder, on a tripod very close to a MF view camera. 645 bodies have advantages for working quickly hand held.

JCook0113 · Nov 11, 2017

Paul Howell said:
The RB is a good choice for architerure as it has a built in bellows, nice range of lens at lest one shift lens. Other option, a baby Speed or Crown, better yet Horseman or Lindfoff, with more movement than a Speed or Crown, use either a ground glass or rangefinder, on a tripod very close to a MF view camera. 645 bodies have advantages for working quickly hand held.

Thanks for the quick reply, I might need something a bit more portable than some of the ones you mentioned. But I agree, I really love how the rb looks with what I am going for but I heard its very hard to focus and use without a tripod which might not be a problem but I just don't have the experience to know. Now that I think of it though, the Crown would be quite an experience to have.

Billy Axeman · Nov 11, 2017

I can recommend the Pentax 645N. It is a very affordable and reliable camera. The first model (645) is extremely cheap. With it's standard grip it is shooting like a normal SLR. I myself use Pentax-A 645 manual lenses on it.
The only thing I don't like is it's unrefined raw shutter noise (mirror clap, transport). And of course the negative is quite small.

JCook0113 · Nov 11, 2017

Billy Axeman said:
I can recommend the Pentax 645N. Is is a very affordable and reliable camera. The first model (645) is extremely cheap. With it's standard grip it is shooting like a normal SLR. I myself use Pentax-A 645 manual lenses on it.
The only thing I don't like is it's unrefined raw shutter noise (mirror clap, transport). And of course the negative is quite small.

The 645n is a bit too expensive for me. Is the regular pentax 645 something I should stay away from?

M Carter · Nov 11, 2017

I've shot the RB handheld with the L-grip. You can also get a metered finder for it, the chimney finder being the cheapest. But it's not linked to the camera, it tells you what shutter and aperture to use and you manually set the camera. You might prefer and RZ with an AE finder.

The RB isn't a fast camera to use, you cock the shutter and wind the film with 2 separate motions. It can be a fine run & grab street camera, but it's heavy and slower to use.

Comparing a 645 system to the RB is kind of apples & oranges. You generally shoot the RB because you want the big neg, and because you want a big rectangular neg vs. a 6x6 format. That extra centimeter makes a world of difference in system size though. If you won't be darkroom printing, a 645 may give all the IQ you need and reduce the grain you'd have with 35.

You haven't seen many Pentax 645 photos because it's just not as common as the Mamiya. Mamiya really evolved their 645 system over the years - in fact it sill exists today as a very high end digital system. Mamiya was also very good about keeping parts compatible for as long as possible, so thing like early lenses can work on much later model cameras. I'd assume the 645 is a fine system with great IQ, though there can always be one so-so lens in a lineup.

But if you want to shoot architecture, don't want a tripod, have never used a meter, I don't know how well you'll succeed. I would 100% recommend you get a simple 35mm SLR, get a 28 or 35mm lens for it, and shoot a few rolls and see how it goes. That will give you a much better idea of what you'll want to move up to, and you'll spend a lot less money on the camera and all the film and processing (and likely scanning) you'll need to learn what you're doing. Can't tell you how many people decide they want to shoot film and they have to have the bestest thing out there, get an MF system, and get sick of the costs of film and the hassle of the gear, all while getting a lot of failed images. I'd learn the basics with an SLR, or really, even better, a digital camera with manual functions. That's really the fastest way to learn the basics of exposure, framing, and the visual trade-offs of aperture and shutter speed choices.

Billy Axeman · Nov 11, 2017

JCook0113 said:
The 645n is a bit too expensive for me. Is the regular pentax 645 something I should stay away from?

I can't remember any negative review on the 645. It also seems to be a very reliable camera.
Some reviews:

Pentax 645 (1984-1997)
http://www.kenrockwell.com/pentax/645/645.htm

Pentax 645N AF (1997)
http://www.kenrockwell.com/pentax/645/645n.htm

Other reviews (645, 645N, 645NII)
https://www.pentaxforums.com/camerareviews/pentax-645-medium-format-c3.html

Alan Gales · Nov 11, 2017

There is nothing wrong with the original Pentax 645 camera. The 645N adds a larger viewfinder, autofocus, matrix metering and a traditional shutter speed dial instead of the silly electronic switch on the original 645. Original manual focus lenses are cheap. The autofocus lenses have shot up in price due to the fact that you can use them on the Pentax 645 digital cameras.

I don't know a lot about the Mamiya 645 cameras but I thought that the later cameras had meters. A Bronica ETR series is another choice. I forget now but you may be able to get a metered prism for them. I had an ETRSi once for a very short time and it had a non metered prism. I sold it because I got a great deal on a 6x6. Anyway, they are all good cameras and lens quality should be pretty similar between Pentax, Mamiya and Bronica.

I used to own a Mamiya RZ67. It was just slightly lighter than the RB. I almost always shot this camera on a tripod even with the "L" grip which really aids in hand held shooting. If you add a metered prism to it then it really gets heavy. I preferred the unmetered waste level finder. Lenses are also heavy for RZ and RB cameras. A body and a 3 lens set can weigh you down for hiking. The 6x7 images are nice though!

BrianShaw · Nov 11, 2017

Ummm, forgive me but...

If you don’t want to use a tripod you may be in for a miserable MF experience at times. If not a tripod, are you okay with a monopod?

Sirius Glass · Nov 11, 2017

A word about interchangeable backs: The backs allow one to change from color to black & white, but consider that if you want to take a photograph of the interior of a building or outside in dim light, you may want to change to a faster film. For example I use Kodak Tri-X 400 most of the time for black & white, but if I need a faster film I switch backs to use Ilford Delta 3200.

Billy Axeman · Nov 11, 2017

To follow up on Sirius Class comment, and concerning the Pentax 645(N), you can't change the back on a 645 halfway because it has no darkslide.

voceumana · Nov 11, 2017

What kind of architectural photography interests you? I ask because the view camera is the best camera for architecture if you are looking for corrected perspective (i.e., buildings that don't "lean back" because you tilted the camera to include the top of the building). They do need a tripod, though. You can often purchase a used view camera for less than the cost of a medium format camera, or at least similar price.

Tripods that annoy are often cheap tripods. But tripods are the best way to ensure sharp photographs. Medium format mirrors are large and their motion can induce vibrations that reduce the sharpness of images. Mirror lock-up lets the vibrations subside before you release the shutter making for sharper photos in addition to precluding motion of the camera when you try to hold it by hand.

Sirius Glass · Nov 11, 2017

Sirius Glass said:
A word about interchangeable backs: The backs allow one to change from color to black & white, but consider that if you want to take a photograph of the interior of a building or outside in dim light, you may want to change to a faster film. For example I use Kodak Tri-X 400 most of the time for black & white, but if I need a faster film I switch backs to use Ilford Delta 3200.

Billy Axeman said:
To follow up on Sirius Class comment, and concerning the Pentax 645(N), you can't change the back on a 645 halfway because it has no darkslide.

All the better reason to buy a Hasselblad and just wait a little longer between buying lenses.

Ian Grant · Nov 11, 2017

Personally I'd suggest a 645 camera, I've used Mamiya 645 cameras, a basic 645 and 1000S for over 30 years, great cameras, excellent lenses, I have use RB67's as well but in all honesty I'd rather use (& do) a hand held 5x4 camera less weight and higher quality with all the advantages of movements if I want higher quality than 6x6 or 645. I really find the RB67 (and similar) cameras very unwieldy.

Now a Pentax 67 is quite different, but I'm a committed 6x6 or 5x4 shooter these days although I do use my Mamiya 645 cameras as well.

Ian

rverstee · Nov 11, 2017

Mamiya 6 MF with 50 mm, 75 mm and 150 mm, easy sharp and relatively light for a 6x6 rangefinder.

MattKing · Nov 11, 2017

Welcome to Photrio. Hope you enjoy your time here.
Both currently and in the past I've owned lots of different medium format cameras. If you spend some time here, you will probably note that others here are in the same situation.
Those cameras include a pinhole camera and several 120 folding cameras. But in the realm of reflex cameras (which I think you are asking about) my main cameras are system cameras, and happen to be all Mamiya cameras.
The first is a twin lens reflex camera - the Mamiya C330. My kit is down to two lenses now, although I've owned more in the past. That camera has served me well for 40+ years. They are a good option to consider.
The second is a Mamiya 645 Pro. It is a 6x4.5 single lens reflex camera. I own the accessory metering prism finder, many accessories including multiple interchangeable backs and several lenses. It or the other models in the later line (645 Super and 645 Pro Tl) are good places to start because they are parts of a modular system. The later 645e is also interesting as a starter camera, but doesn't offer the modularity - the metering finder is fixed, and the back doesn't change.
The 3rd is the Mamiya RB67. It too is a single lens reflex camera. It works with interchangeable backs, many lenses and many accessories, and is big and heavy. To me, the RB67 is a strange place to start for someone who has never used a medium format camera, and doesn't like using a tripod. It is, however, a wonderful camera to use, particularly if you print your work in the darkroom.
I certainly wouldn't rely on web images to evaluate cameras (except for very specialized types of photography, such as underwater work). The nature of the film camera used has very little effect on how an internet image appears. Even the lens choices (excepting super wide or super long lens) have very little effect on how an internet image appears.
For fun, here are three images from my cameras - first the C330, second the 645 Pro and third the RB67:

The 645 Pro shot was hand held, while I used a tripod for the C330 shot and a monopod for the RB67 shot.

Theo Sulphate · Nov 11, 2017

M Carter said:
...
But if you want to shoot architecture, don't want a tripod, have never used a meter, I don't know how well you'll succeed. I would 100% recommend you get a simple 35mm SLR, get a 28 or 35mm lens for it, and shoot a few rolls and see how it goes. That will give you a much better idea of what you'll want to move up to, and you'll spend a lot less money on the camera and all the film and processing (and likely scanning) you'll need to learn what you're doing.
...

This is good advice.

JCook0113 · Nov 11, 2017

M Carter said:
I've shot the RB handheld with the L-grip. You can also get a metered finder for it, the chimney finder being the cheapest. But it's not linked to the camera, it tells you what shutter and aperture to use and you manually set the camera. You might prefer and RZ with an AE finder.

The RB isn't a fast camera to use, you cock the shutter and wind the film with 2 separate motions. It can be a fine run & grab street camera, but it's heavy and slower to use.

Comparing a 645 system to the RB is kind of apples & oranges. You generally shoot the RB because you want the big neg, and because you want a big rectangular neg vs. a 6x6 format. That extra centimeter makes a world of difference in system size though. If you won't be darkroom printing, a 645 may give all the IQ you need and reduce the grain you'd have with 35.

You haven't seen many Pentax 645 photos because it's just not as common as the Mamiya. Mamiya really evolved their 645 system over the years - in fact it sill exists today as a very high end digital system. Mamiya was also very good about keeping parts compatible for as long as possible, so thing like early lenses can work on much later model cameras. I'd assume the 645 is a fine system with great IQ, though there can always be one so-so lens in a lineup.

But if you want to shoot architecture, don't want a tripod, have never used a meter, I don't know how well you'll succeed. I would 100% recommend you get a simple 35mm SLR, get a 28 or 35mm lens for it, and shoot a few rolls and see how it goes. That will give you a much better idea of what you'll want to move up to, and you'll spend a lot less money on the camera and all the film and processing (and likely scanning) you'll need to learn what you're doing. Can't tell you how many people decide they want to shoot film and they have to have the bestest thing out there, get an MF system, and get sick of the costs of film and the hassle of the gear, all while getting a lot of failed images. I'd learn the basics with an SLR, or really, even better, a digital camera with manual functions. That's really the fastest way to learn the basics of exposure, framing, and the visual trade-offs of aperture and shutter speed choices.

Thanks for the reply. Sorry I am replying so late I didn't even get any notifications but anyway, I have been shooting 35mm for about a year and a half now so I know how film works and how slow it can be but I am trying to get into something with a but more quality and that is a bit more fun to use. Btw I use my slr with full manual but it has a built in meter

JCook0113 · Nov 11, 2017

Alan Gales said:
There is nothing wrong with the original Pentax 645 camera. The 645N adds a larger viewfinder, autofocus, matrix metering and a traditional shutter speed dial instead of the silly electronic switch on the original 645. Original manual focus lenses are cheap. The autofocus lenses have shot up in price due to the fact that you can use them on the Pentax 645 digital cameras.

I don't know a lot about the Mamiya 645 cameras but I thought that the later cameras had meters. A Bronica ETR series is another choice. I forget now but you may be able to get a metered prism for them. I had an ETRSi once for a very short time and it had a non metered prism. I sold it because I got a great deal on a 6x6. Anyway, they are all good cameras and lens quality should be pretty similar between Pentax, Mamiya and Bronica.

I used to own a Mamiya RZ67. It was just slightly lighter than the RB. I almost always shot this camera on a tripod even with the "L" grip which really aids in hand held shooting. If you add a metered prism to it then it really gets heavy. I preferred the unmetered waste level finder. Lenses are also heavy for RZ and RB cameras. A body and a 3 lens set can weigh you down for hiking. The 6x7 images are nice though!

Thanks! that clears up a lot. I guess I should man up and use my tripod. Ive always likes being able to just walk around with my 35mm though

JCook0113 · Nov 11, 2017

BrianShaw said:
Ummm, forgive me but...

If you don’t want to use a tripod you may be in for a miserable MF experience at times. If not a tripod, are you okay with a monopod?

Ya I have been recently beginning to realize that. Ill man up and use my tripod its just i've never had to use one so I am pretty uncomfortable with taking it with me everywhere because I mostly walk to get to places

JCook0113 · Nov 11, 2017

voceumana said:
What kind of architectural photography interests you? I ask because the view camera is the best camera for architecture if you are looking for corrected perspective (i.e., buildings that don't "lean back" because you tilted the camera to include the top of the building). They do need a tripod, though. You can often purchase a used view camera for less than the cost of a medium format camera, or at least similar price.

Tripods that annoy are often cheap tripods. But tripods are the best way to ensure sharp photographs. Medium format mirrors are large and their motion can induce vibrations that reduce the sharpness of images. Mirror lock-up lets the vibrations subside before you release the shutter making for sharper photos in addition to precluding motion of the camera when you try to hold it by hand.

I am mainly wander around alleyways and odd neighborhoods. I find myself turning towards a minimalist approach to everything I shoot. Sometimes I go to industrial places or modern museums early in the morning when no one is there. Just anything really. thanks for asking

JCook0113 · Nov 11, 2017

Ian Grant said:
Personally I'd suggest a 645 camera, I've used Mamiya 645 cameras, a basic 645 and 1000S for over 30 years, great cameras, excellent lenses, I have use RB67's as well but in all honesty I'd rather use (& do) a hand held 5x4 camera less weight and higher quality with all the advantages of movements if I want higher quality than 6x6 or 645. I really find the RB67 (and similar) cameras very unwieldy.

Now a Pentax 67 is quite different, but I'm a committed 6x6 or 5x4 shooter these days although I do use my Mamiya 645 cameras as well.

Ian

I am actually secretly considering a speed graphic and I am sure it would be tons of fun. Thats the only 4x5 camera I have done any searching on though. you think thats something I should get? I wont be able to hand hold it I don't think

Theo Sulphate · Nov 11, 2017

JCook0113 said:
Ya I have been recently beginning to realize that. Ill man up and use my tripod its just i've never had to use one so I am pretty uncomfortable with taking it with me everywhere because I mostly walk to get to places

Well, I've done a lot of walking with my RB67 and no tripod - in town and everywhere. It's not that heavy, though Hasselblad is lighter and smaller.

For eye-level viewing, RB67 prism is like Soviet-era tank, so I use waist-level instead. Eye-level prism for Hasselblad is nice!

Maybe consider TLR like Yashica 124G (has meter) - decent quality for the money.

Also possible is something like Fuji GW690III - if you like rangefinders and one lens.

1kgcoffee · Nov 11, 2017

I'm going to throw another suggestion:
Kiev 6c
You can find them CLAd on ebay. Excellent and inexpensive lenses. Cheap body. Takes 120 or 220 film. Has a reputation for shutter slap but this is undeserved. You simply have to use a cable release and can take sharp pictures handheld down to 1/8.

JCook0113 · Nov 11, 2017

MattKing said:
Welcome to Photrio. Hope you enjoy your time here.
Both currently and in the past I've owned lots of different medium format cameras. If you spend some time here, you will probably note that others here are in the same situation.
Those cameras include a pinhole camera and several 120 folding cameras. But in the realm of reflex cameras (which I think you are asking about) my main cameras are system cameras, and happen to be all Mamiya cameras.
The first is a twin lens reflex camera - the Mamiya C330. My kit is down to two lenses now, although I've owned more in the past. That camera has served me well for 40+ years. They are a good option to consider.
The second is a Mamiya 645 Pro. It is a 6x4.5 single lens reflex camera. I own the accessory metering prism finder, many accessories including multiple interchangeable backs and several lenses. It or the other models in the later line (645 Super and 645 Pro Tl) are good places to start because they are parts of a modular system. The later 645e is also interesting as a starter camera, but doesn't offer the modularity - the metering finder is fixed, and the back doesn't change.
The 3rd is the Mamiya RB67. It too is a single lens reflex camera. It works with interchangeable backs, many lenses and many accessories, and is big and heavy. To me, the RB67 is a strange place to start for someone who has never used a medium format camera, and doesn't like using a tripod. It is, however, a wonderful camera to use, particularly if you print your work in the darkroom.
I certainly wouldn't rely on web images to evaluate cameras (except for very specialized types of photography, such as underwater work). The nature of the film camera used has very little effect on how an internet image appears. Even the lens choices (excepting super wide or super long lens) have very little effect on how an internet image appears.
For fun, here are three images from my cameras - first the C330, second the 645 Pro and third the RB67:

View attachment 189888

View attachment 189889

View attachment 189892

The 645 Pro shot was hand held, while I used a tripod for the C330 shot and a monopod for the RB67 shot.

Thanks so much for the in depth reply. I am sort of figuring out that online images have a lot of different factors that can make it look how it is like how it was scanned, what film etc. I just don't know how else to figure out if I would like a camera or not. I was thinking on renting a mamiya m645 for $50 but what if I might like the rb or rz or pentax or some other camera I have ever heard of better. I might be overdoing this decision but Im broke from shooting film lol

Need help deciding on a medium format camera

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