Need help choosing a MF system.

After a long hiatus from doing anything remotely serious with photography, I'm ready to get back to business. My darkroom is just about finished now. I've mostly been shooting 35mm family outing type stuff and from experience know that it is not going to provide the resolution I want for enlarging landscapes. Next month I'll have some extra cash and am looking to invest in a MF system. With so many options I just keep stewing over all of the different systems out there, so I'm hoping you good folks might be able to steer me in the right direction.

My Background - I've owned and used 35mm SLR's and rangefinders, TLR's, MF folders, Mamiya m645's, and 4x5's.

My Wants/Needs - I'll be shooting mostly tripod-based landscapes, so not overly concerned with system weight/size. I'll mostly be shooting B&W, but will also want the option for swapping to color film occasionally. So, the system MUST allow for interchangeable film backs. I really liked the m645, especially the 80mm f/1.9 for a walk around lens, but the lack of ability to swap between films rules this out, though the newer Mamiya 645's are a possibility. With my budget I want to get a body, 2 or 3 film backs, a wide angle lens, and a normal to mid-tele for friends/family portraits and candids. I'll be printing 8x10 and 11x14 for now. Will eventually want to maybe do some 16x20.

Limiting Factors - My budget for now will be $1000 and I will not have any additional funds to put toward the system any time soon (student loans kick in the end of winter, I just hope going back to school pays off...eek!). So, this rules out Hasselblads, Contax 645's, etc. My enlarger is a Durst M605 that only goes up to a 6x6 negative. However, I have not ruled out going to a larger negative (or even large format for that matter) if I have funds left over to pick up a cheap enlarger.

I've already budgeted out enough separate funds to load up to film, paper, and chemicals to keep me busy for quite a while. A small part of me refuses to completely rule out 4x5, but my wants/restrictions seem to be leading me more to MF.

I tried my best to anticipate any questions you may have to help narrow things down. So with all of this in mind what would your top recommendations be to help steer me in the right direction?

Thanks in advance for any help

How wide a lens do you need or what would be your preferred focal length in 35mm? Is weight a criterion?

Thanks for chiming in Slixtiesix. I'm not looking for an ultrawide by any means, probably around a 28mm equivalent in 35mm. Maybe eventually something wider, but that's down the road. As for weight, of course lighter would be better, but that is way at the bottom of my wants. If it would really be worthwhile to do so I would even consider an RB/RZ. Again though, my current enlarger only goes up to 6x6, so if I went 6x7/6x8/6x9 I would need to also factor in a new enlarger.

A Hasselblad will work well for you. You may have to wait longer between lens purchases but most of the CF lenses sell for around $800 so start with the 80mm.

Sirius Glass said:

A Hasselblad will work well for you. You may have to wait longer between lens purchases but most of the CF lenses sell for around $800 so start with the 80mm.

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HI SG, thank you for your input. I have definitely looked at Hassies as I've seen plenty of kits with a spare back and 80mm Planar go for just under a $1000 in good condition. However, I have 2 concerns going this route. First, my primary focus will be landscapes so will definitely want something wider than the 80mm to start and it would be a while before I could begin to think about other lenses. Also, Hassies are much more expensive for parts and service. If a part failed on say a Mamiya or Bronica system I could get a replacement for a fraction of the cost of the equivalent Hassie component. And in the end, I highly doubt I would ever really be able to tell the difference from one system to the next in a final print.

To me it's a bit silly to shoot 6x6 and crop it to a rectangle. I understand why wedding photographers used to do it but if I want a rectangle I'll shoot a rectangle. If I want a square image I'll shoot square. For printing 8x10 or 11X14 a 645 would be fine. As for printing 16X20 I would rather shoot a 6x7 camera and a Mamiya RB67 or Pentax 6x7 would probably be your best fit with your budget.

For shooting landscapes I would prefer a 4x5 over medium format because of camera movements. You don't need a lot for landscapes but a little tilt alone really comes in handy. For your budget you will probably be looking at a monorail. Some of the friction non-geared Cambo/Calumets are really cheap and not too heavy. You can always buy a lightweight compact field camera when your budget allows. For a 4x5 enlarger I would look at an Omega. They are dirt cheap and plentiful.

Just my 2 cents.

Alan Gales said:

To me it's a bit silly to shoot 6x6 and crop it to a rectangle. I understand why wedding photographers used to do it but if I want a rectangle I'll shoot a rectangle. If I want a square image I'll shoot square. For printing 8x10 or 11X14 a 645 would be fine. As for shooting 16X20 I would rather shoot a 6x7 camera and a Mamiya RB67 or Pentax 6x7 would probably be your best fit with your budget.

For shooting landscapes I would prefer a 4x5 over medium format because of camera movements. You don't need a lot for landscapes but a little tilt alone really comes in handy. For your budget you will probably be looking at a monorail. Some of the friction non-geared Cambo/Calumets are really cheap and not too heavy. You can always buy a lightweight compact field camera when your budget allows. For a 4x5 enlarger I would look at an Omega. They are dirt cheap and plentiful.

Just my 2 cents.

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Thanks Alan. Trust me, definitely not ruling out 4x5 as of yet. I've certainly seen plenty of options for a 4x5 with a 90mm lens and half dozen film holders for under $700. The remaining $300 is more than enough to pick up an Omega DII off CL. Plus I have my Nikon outfit for any walking around stuff.

I have a strong prejudice in favor of 2x3 Graphics. I'm fairly sure you can build the system you want around a 2x3 Crown Graphic or a Century Graphic (economy version of Crown, as capable as a Crown) for well under $1k. To get an idea of what can be done with these cameras, please see http://www.galerie-photo.com/telechargement/dan-fromm-6x9-lenses-v2-2011-03-29.pdf There are 6x6 roll holders for these cameras. IMO -- some people disagree -- the only generally usable movement these cameras have is 19 mm of front rise. If you need swings or tilt or more rise you shouldn't get a 2x3 Graphic.

On nominal 6x9 (actual 2.25" x 3.25"), a 65 mm lens sees the same view as a 28 mm lens does on 24x36.

Setting my prejudices to one side, Alan Gales' suggestion of a 4x5 Cambo is a good one. The system you want built around one might even cost less than the equivalent 2x3 system built around a 2x3 Graphic. IMO -- some people disagree -- the only generally usable movement 2x3 Graphics have is 19 mm of front rise. If you need swings or tilt or more rise you shouldn't get a 2x3 Graphic.

$1k goes pretty far in Bronica land... I think I'm still just under that with effectively all keh sourced (very recent) "ex+ to ln-" condition stuff. Some better deals are out there, but also some not.
ETRSi Body,WLF, prism finder non-ae, (2) 120 backs, (1) 135w back, 75EII/2.8, 150PE/3.5, speed grip, caps, hood, few odds and ends.

RB/RZ are basically studio cameras, heavy beasts and I don't think they are really the best tool for landscape photography. For large DOF in landscape photography you will have to stop down considerably and as a consequence will loose resolution to diffraction.
Rather get yourself something like a Horseman VH and use it for 6x7 or 6x9, they are so cheap nowadays, a camera with lens and roll film back goes for 250-300, additional lenses often in the 100-150 range, excellent image quality, robust, and still much more lightweight and compact then a RB/RZ could ever be, plus you get full movements and the technical image quality will be better than with a RB/RZ, especially for landscapes. Tripod requirements are also lesser than with a RB/RZ. Disadvantages: some limitations when it comes to very short or very long FL lenses

I will take command here and heartily recommend the Mamiya 645, the one with interchangeable backs.... what is it? the M645 methinks.... great lenses and easy back changes and the 40mm is way past super sharp lenses all the way round... not too heavy and just good stuff. I think it would fit all of your needs for a long time. The pris,s are very bright and have good eye relief if you are an eye glasses wearer....check them out, Sir

Logan

Too bad you are limiting yourself to interchangeable backs. You can get a Mamiya C330f body, 55mm tlr lens, and a prism finder in the BGN grade from KEH for under $400 currently. This system is easy to find on eBay too but prices and condition are more uncertain. And really for 12 exposures doing landscape you can run a roll trying several exposure/filter/perspective variations for each scene you are shooting.

Steve

Xia_Ke said:

HI SG, thank you for your input. I have definitely looked at Hassies as I've seen plenty of kits with a spare back and 80mm Planar go for just under a $1000 in good condition. However, I have 2 concerns going this route. First, my primary focus will be landscapes so will definitely want something wider than the 80mm to start and it would be a while before I could begin to think about other lenses. Also, Hassies are much more expensive for parts and service. If a part failed on say a Mamiya or Bronica system I could get a replacement for a fraction of the cost of the equivalent Hassie component. And in the end, I highly doubt I would ever really be able to tell the difference from one system to the next in a final print.

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First of all Hasselblads are very reliable. Parts and service are easily accessible. My experience is that my Hasselblads have been more rugged than the Mamiyas or Bronicas. There are reasons that professional photographers preferred them.

If you want to go wider than the 80mm lens I recommend the 50mm lens is a good step wider than the 80mm lens. The move from 80mm to 60mm will probably disappoint you. My widest is my 38mm Biogon lens Hasselblad 903 SWC but that is a really big jump in cost. However the 903 is rectilinearly correct and is definitely worth its costs. See attached photograph.

I'd try like hellto squeezethe Hasselblad into that equation.It sounds like the ideal fit for your wants and needs

Mamiya 645: Super, Pro or the most recent Pro-Tl will give you interchangeable backs. The lenses are the same as the ones you have familiarity with, although at least some of the more recent "N" versions are worth having - the 45mm comes to mind.

If you want a larger negative, the RB67 is a wonderful value, and I find it portable enough.

IMO a 645 isn't a terribly worthwhile step up from 35mm if you really want to take advantage of a bigger negative. Though 6x6 is 6x4.5 if you're printing a rectangle. But square is nice, and lets you take full advantage of the enlarger's capacity.

You can get a Hasselblad and a 50 or a 60 if you want wide and a couple of backs and stay in your budget. But the best bang for the buck is probably an RB/RZ 67. For starting out and to stay within your enlarger's capacity get a 6x6 back. In one package you get very close focusing because of the bellows, interchangeable backs and even bigger negatives when you can upgrade you're enlarger.

Hasselblad advertized that square is the prefect format.

Gotta love APUG, lots of great suggestions/thoughts/arguments all around

Here are some of my thoughts on the various systems over the last few posts:

Century Graphics/Horsemans/6x9 viewcameras - The owner of my local Hunt's Photo has his camera collection on display in the shop. Every time I go I lust over a Mini Speed Graphic he has. They, along with the similar other options including Centuries and Horsemans, seems like they could be fun and fairly versatile cameras to own. However, I can't help but think that if I'm considering one of these I might as well jump up to a 4x5. Crown Graphics and other press cameras are also available at a song. With these I could shoot 4x5 film or get the same roll film backs I would be using with their smaller siblings for not too much of a weight/size penalty.

RB-67/RZ-67 - The one thing I really like about the design of these is the rotating backs. Plus, they can be had for a song right now. As with the above though, for the size of these I almost wonder if I would be better off just making the jump to a 4x5.

Mamiya 645 (later models) - These have definitely been toward the top of my list. I really, really loved the 80mm f/1.9 I had before with a m645 1000s. Plus these have swappable film backs and the prices on the bodies/lenses are very budget friendly and I wouldn't need a new enlarger.

Hasselblad - From all that I have read and been told, these are phenomenal cameras, arguably the pinnacle of MF cameras. Given my budget though, I'm very hesitant to go this route. As an analogy of sorts, over the last couple of years of shooting almost primarily 35mm, I've gone through a few systems. I got to a point where I "had" to have a Leica M. Shooting with an M2 and collapsible 'cron was definitely a joy. However, I didn't have it in the budget for a long time to get any different lenses. While a 50mm was fine for most shooting, there were definitely times I wanted something wider. In the end I traded the bargain grade body for a Nikon F outfit that included 2 bodies and 5 lenses. Sure the Leica had a better "fondle" factor, but the F was also bullet proof and damned if I could tell the scans apart except for when directly comparing known examples. I recently processed some rolls I shot a while ago when in transition and couldn't remember/tell which system I used. So when all is said and done, is it better to have the extra fondle factor when in the end it's all about taking photos and a "lesser" system would provide me a lot more options given my budget?

Bronica - The ETR is for sure at the front of the pack when it comes to uber-cheap MF options from prices I have been seeing. However, the Mamiya 80mm f/1.9 keeps drawing me back to that system if I go 645 and the Mamiyas don't seem to be going for too much more. For Bronicas though, the S2/S2a have caught my eye as an alternative to a Hasselblad. They are certainly affordable, the shots I have seen are plenty sharp enough, and being all mechanical is definitely a plus (what can I say, I have a soft spot for old mechanical cameras). I'm not too familiar with the quirks and reliability of these though. Curious as to how they stack up???

Sirius Glass said:

Hasselblad advertized that square is the prefect format.

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Yes they did and for some situations I really like the square format. When I shot Rolleis for a while, it was nice having the option to shoot for eventual landscape or portrait layout without having to worry about camera configuration.

Sirius Glass said:

Hasselblad advertized that square is the prefect format.

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...and today, the largest digital back which they offer is rectangular and a bit smaller than 645 film format (56 x 43mm), 53.7 x 40.2mm
!

wiltw said:

...and today, the largest digital back which they offer is rectangular and a bit smaller than 645 film format (56 x 43mm), 53.7 x 40.2mm
!

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Because they are not owned by Victor Hasselblad or his heirs. The buyers of Hasselbad are digital centric and they had no interest in Hasselblad Series V advantages. They are only interested in their own agenda.

APUGuser19 said:

A Hasselblad with a digital back is a cellphone. Or you can be a real man and put film in it, and have some self-respect.

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+1

You will see a big difference in a 16X20 between a 6X4.5 camera and a 6X7 camera. There is just no substitute for the larger negative area. Both Bronica GS-1 and Mamiya RB/RZ67 systems are available at very reasonable prices. I would say that getting service on the RB/RZ system is easier than getting it for the Bronica GS-1 system. When you are talking about standard print sizes there isn't a big difference between 6X7 and 6X9. The 6X9 negative will have to be cropped to about 6X7 to make the same 8X10, 11X14 or 16X20. Another issue is that dedicated 6X9 enlargers have not been made for some time. Most people who print full frame from 6X9 negatives are using a 4X5 enlarger. Yes, you can get a 6X9 roll film back for a 4X5 camera but not all of these backs keep the film perfectly flat. If you need movements with that set-up you can also get a 6X7 roll film back. This will slightly increase your coverage with a given lens. I have not used sheet film for some time but I am putting together a system for 4X5 shooting. I have a 4X5 Calumet view camera with reasonably long bellows, a 135/5.6 W Fujinon, some film holders and what looks like a new Yankee daylight sheet film tank. The board my lens came in is not the right one for the Calumet but I have a separate board so I will be rigging the lens up to that one. I also have my eye on an Omega D2 enlarger. On Friday I stopped at Unique and picked up a box of 4X5 Ilford FP4+ so I'm nearly ready to test things out. Barring any light leaks and without using any extreme movements I should be able to generate a respectable 16X20 with this outfit. Other lenses and maybe a roll film back can follow. This 4X5 outfit, even including what I will need to spend for the enlarger should come to less than $400. The equipment is all out there. You just have to decide what you need or want to do with it.

Sirius Glass said:

They are only interested in their own agenda.

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Unfortunately, like most companies today all they care about is profit. Many companies today don't care about their employees, the environment, the country they are based in, or their customers just as long as the all mighty dollar comes in.

Xia_Ke said:

After a long hiatus from doing anything remotely serious with photography, I'm ready to get back to business. My darkroom is just about finished now. I've mostly been shooting 35mm family outing type stuff and from experience know that it is not going to provide the resolution I want for enlarging landscapes. Next month I'll have some extra cash and am looking to invest in a MF system. With so many options I just keep stewing over all of the different systems out there, so I'm hoping you good folks might be able to steer me in the right direction.

My Background - I've owned and used 35mm SLR's and rangefinders, TLR's, MF folders, Mamiya m645's, and 4x5's.

My Wants/Needs - I'll be shooting mostly tripod-based landscapes, so not overly concerned with system weight/size. I'll mostly be shooting B&W, but will also want the option for swapping to color film occasionally. So, the system MUST allow for interchangeable film backs. I really liked the m645, especially the 80mm f/1.9 for a walk around lens, but the lack of ability to swap between films rules this out, though the newer Mamiya 645's are a possibility. With my budget I want to get a body, 2 or 3 film backs, a wide angle lens, and a normal to mid-tele for friends/family portraits and candids. I'll be printing 8x10 and 11x14 for now. Will eventually want to maybe do some 16x20.

Limiting Factors - My budget for now will be $1000 and I will not have any additional funds to put toward the system any time soon (student loans kick in the end of winter, I just hope going back to school pays off...eek!). So, this rules out Hasselblads, Contax 645's, etc. My enlarger is a Durst M605 that only goes up to a 6x6 negative. However, I have not ruled out going to a larger negative (or even large format for that matter) if I have funds left over to pick up a cheap enlarger.

I've already budgeted out enough separate funds to load up to film, paper, and chemicals to keep me busy for quite a while. A small part of me refuses to completely rule out 4x5, but my wants/restrictions seem to be leading me more to MF.

I tried my best to anticipate any questions you may have to help narrow things down. So with all of this in mind what would your top recommendations be to help steer me in the right direction?

Thanks in advance for any help

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Hi if you are going to shoot landscapes I would be prepared to sell my Leica R7 with a Leitz Elmarit R f2.8 19mm lens.
The R7 comes in its box including the strap & the original manual. I prefer the R6 being a mechanical camera I use a light meter a for exposure as I also use a Hasselblad as well.
The R7 is in perfect condition & the lens a few marks on the body but the glass lens in perfect condition. I also have hood with it but you need to be careful as the lens with hood can give you vignetting. Better to use a hat in some cases.
I also have a Mamyia M645 with with a C f2.8 45mm lens & a N f3.5 35mm lens. The body & lenses are in good condition however the light meter that I used is not.
I am not in any rush to sell.
Kind regards Photoideas.