Need advice on developing B&W.

After all this time I've finally decided to give it a try. For color I always shoot E6 and have been sending all of my B&W to the DR5 lab. E6 and DR5 have me spoiled to the point of hating negs. Looking at transparencies on a light table just has a certain magic to it. You can't get that magic with negs or digital. But I want to develop my own. So maybe doing my own will show me how to like negs. I'm looking at the Paterson Super System 4 2 reel tank-is that a good tank to start with? The film in mind is HP5 at 400 or 800 ISO. Which dev, fixer, and stop bath would you recommend?

I prefer Paterson tanks and reels to any of the various stainless steel setups I have used, they just have to be spotlessly dry and very clean for them to load efficiently.

I use HC110 1+49 or 1+100 for any of my films. I'm not incredibly picky about grain and tend to shoot lots of varied scenes on one roll (more so with 35mm 36 exposure than 6x7, of course) so the ease of use (just drop 5-10mls of HC110 syrup into a mixing glass along with however much water I need to cover the 35mm or 120 spools, mix and go) is worth more to me than any perceived or real advantage that other developing routines may provide. The main adjustment I have made is significantly reduced agitation schemes as compared to what most people use/recommend. I have not had any issues that come with stand developing, but I do seem to get a good amount of compensation effect so my varied scenes end up being usable exposures, even if they aren't exactly perfect.

I started by using D76 1+1 and stock, and I've used Rodinal a few times and will probably pick up a bottle just to try it a bit more seriously.

I use any fixer, never noticed any difference aside from smell. I don't use stop bath, just plain water wash.

It would be better to start with a medium speed general purpose film like Ilford FP4 Plus.

You will find that people are split over whether plastic tanks and reels or stainless steel are better. Some find plastic reels hard to loads and the other half find SS hard to load. I use SS because they are easier to keep clean. Any residue in the plastic grooves makes them impossible to load. In addition the plastic reels must be thoroughly dry before they can be loaded.

the stainless steel-plastic tank seems to take on the furor of folks debating mac vs pc.

One you learn stainless you never look back, however, if for no other reason than they don't have to be so freaking dry to re-use when doing a bunch of film.

I also use a mac. So there you are. Your results may vary. Offer void in some states.

Also I use a mac and / but plastic HP Combina tanks, since 1980 plus or minus. Totally easy loading, also when still wet. I have one reel, two reel and five reel tanks.

Starting out you'd be wise to get a one reel tank first. I would also favor using a 125 ASA film. And perhaps a 400 ASA. Rodinal (Adonal) is nice for that, but in fact all developers are good. I just prefer the always fresh developers like Rodinal. Get good at the actual developing first and stick to the same film, same developer first. Where you need to learn is HOW much/little to move your tank. Don't change the parameters all the time (developer, pushing, film . .)

ISO 400-800 with HP5+ is a push process, so I would recommend a developer that is designed for that: Kodak HC110, Ilford HC, LC29, DDX, Microphen. Other developers like D76 or ID11 may work as well since 800 iso is not too much of a push. Beware: There will be grain!
The best advice is to chose one film and one developer to begin with and to learn what can be achieved using this combination thoroughly. As for fixer and stop: Brand and made do not matter, any rapid fixer will do. You do not need a stop bath at all, plain water at 68-74F will do as well. Stop is a must only when using neutral or alkaline fixers.

The Paterson system 4 two reel tank is an excellent starting point. I have used that tank, but prefer a different type, but there is nothing wrong with it at all.

I would suggest you pick up what you can obtain locally for the best price, if the Paterson is the one, go for it.

I myself prefer D76 or Ilford ID11, pretty much the same developer, apart from some additives included for packaging/longevity on a shelf from either company, it is essentially the same developer. You can use it straight or 1+1.

I would suggest you do use a stop bath, it is basically only an acid solution that really stops development instantly, well, within 15 seconds of you starting to pour it into the tank anyway. Using just water as a stop bath, slows development greatly, but still allows a little development until you add the fixer. By using a stop bath you pretty much stop development immediately, thereby retaining greater control. As a bonus, you keep your fixer bath relatively clean for a longer time; fixer is expensive, stop is super cheap.

As for fixer, pretty much whatever is handy locally and once again at the right price.

If you come across Jobo tanks, 1500 series, you could think about them as well. The Jobo tanks are a system set of tanks, much like most 35mm SLR cameras. That is, you can purchase a 1510 tank (1x35mm film) absolute minimum, of chemicals, then add an extension to that (3x35mm films) to make the 1540 (4x35mm films). The Jobo 1520 (2x35mm films) is a very good tank, combined with the 3 film extension, you can develop 5 rolls of film in one hit.

Mick.

Mac and stainless here - harder to learn, easier to use!

For stainless, spend a few extra dollars and get the Hewes reels. Especially in 35mm, they make loading almost foolproof. For some reason, nobody until Hewes figured out to put little prongs down on the hub to catch the sprocket holes and guarantee the film is dead square when you start it. Also, their spiral wires are thicker than anyone else's so the reels don't get bent as easily. Hewes doesn't make tanks, so get Nikor tanks to use them in. Make sure to get one tall enough to handle however many Hewes reels you plan to load into it (because of their thicker wire.) You'd think the tanks would be made at some standard height but no, every one is a little different!

Duncan

For a beginner, I think the Paterson tank is a good place to start. As pointed out by others, the reels must be dry and clean for optimal ease of loading. The large opening makes it super easy and fast to pour chems in, ideal for a tyro. Things to avoid, getting Photoflo on the reels. I have read that it builds up a residue and makes it hard to load film. Buy a good book on dark room work and follow manufacturers instructions on developing, ignore all the developing myths, learn good technique, set a routine. Don't get lazy and keep everything clean, don't fall for the "stand developing works for everything" myth. Oh, spend on an accurate thermometer and monitor chem temps closely, save yourself some headaches. If you can find Jason Brunner's video series on developing B&W film on Youtube, I recommend watching them.

f/16 said:

After all this time I've finally decided to give it a try. For color I always shoot E6 and have been sending all of my B&W to the DR5 lab. E6 and DR5 have me spoiled to the point of hating negs. Looking at transparencies on a light table just has a certain magic to it. You can't get that magic with negs or digital. But I want to develop my own. So maybe doing my own will show me how to like negs. I'm looking at the Paterson Super System 4 2 reel tank-is that a good tank to start with? The film in mind is HP5 at 400 or 800 ISO. Which dev, fixer, and stop bath would you recommend?

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I would start with Ilford ID11,Ilfostop and Hypam fixer and congratulate your decission; best of luck;nothing but your 'own' negs.

Loading film on to a precessing reel is a challenge for people who try to ignore the reverse curl that most cameras impose. Lot of denial on this point. If you leave a film in a 35mm for a week you need to leave it in a drawer for a week to recover from the curl.

Buy the cheapest tank you can find second hand, inspect visually carefully, people bang them on tables intentionally.

The developer is not critical you can use a coffee recipe, or a painkiller! Whatever your local shop has.

After development water is ok for stopping the developer damaging the fixer

I use sodium thiosulphate for fixer

The temperature of the liquids between baths is desirably the same.

Fixing, hypo clear, and washing need most care if you want your negatives to last. The Ilford triple wash is archival with minimal water use.

If you have a septic tank and local well id treat the waste liquids by tank to disposal authority.

You don't look at negatives like you look at transparencies, e.g. you only look to see if there is silver in the shadows if there is no silver you wont be able to print easily. If there is silver or fog in rebates you have other problems...

You need to contact print instead (or scan).

So as well as a tank, thermometer, bottles etc., you need four or five 10x12 trays, sheet of 9x11 glass flame polished glass edges, box of 8x10 glossy RC VC silver bromide, rubber kitchen gloves, print developer (the pain killer is ok), etc.

It is good fun - I use a tube for 8x10 RC - for daylight processing, I only need heavy drapes then.

You may then want an enlarger... My last one was free.

I like the Paterson tanks so much. I find the reels of a very good plastic quality (at least mine, I hope materials have not changed over the years).
But my advice is to buy the THREE reel tank, not the two reel one. With the 3 reel one you can develop 3x35mm or 2x120, but also to use a 4x5" sheet film adapter.
Maybe you`ll never shoot 120 or 4x5", but for sure the resale value will be higher than the 2 reel tank (just my guess).
I have used my tanks for decades, with a little care the Paterson will last a lifetime.
In my experience, Patersons have only one small drawback; there are two a small bearings in the head of the reel to hold the film during the insertion. They use to get stucked after drying, so they need to be losened with a pencil point or whatever every time you want to use it. Just a small annoyance.

When I started, the consensus was that if you were new, shooting Tri-X at 200-250 and developing it in D75 would get you started off on the right foot. I still agree w/ that, even after years of doing it myself. I've since switched to a couple of different films, mostly because they're cheaper and I've learned how to make them work, but last night I was looking through some of my older stuff and thinking "why did I stop going with Tri-X and D76?" It's a very forgiving combination, and looks as good anything else I've seen. There are sharper films and developers, but the tonality of Tri-X/D76 is what I like.

Any stop bath will get the job done. For a long time I used Kodak indicator stop, which will last forever it seems, but now I just pour a little vinegar into the gradient and add the water, or do the same w/ powdered citric acid.

My System 4 setups has been working fine for a long time. If you soak your film in the tank w/ the Photo-Flo after it's been fixed (Kodak Rapid fixer), you'll have to scrub the reels w/ a toothbrush to get it off later because it builds up and can make loading the reels troublesome. I just use a measuring cup, pour the wetting agent into it, and dunk the film into that.

Buying an oversize change bag will save you a lot of grief.

Plenty of good advice here. Follow this Ilford publication and you can't go wrong: http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/200629163442455.pdf

Developing B&W film is not real exciting. Printing is where you actually learn to appreciate the negative IMO. You can probably get a basic printing setup for $100.

OK thanks everyone. I know this will vary,but about how much roughly does it cost in chemicals to develop a roll-1 USD, 2, 3, 5???

Your initial outlay for chemicals may seem high, but you must divide the cost by how many rolls of film you can run through them. Don't be fooled by "false economy" when purchasing. Some times chems appear inexpensive, but lack of quality, or low volume count, can mislead you. Purchase quality chems from a reputable dealer, whichever developer you decide on, use one shot(dev one roll then toss) stop bath is reusable, fixer can be used one shot or reused. Mix powered chems with distilled water, to working strength, then dilute for one shot use with tap water.No need for hypo clearing agent with film, but you may want a rinse aid such as Photoflo or similar. Final overall costs are too variable to post a per roll cost here, that price is determined by your particular purchase.

f/16 said:

OK thanks everyone. I know this will vary,but about how much roughly does it cost in chemicals to develop a roll-1 USD, 2, 3, 5???

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For me:

Developer: 25 - 50 cents (HC-110)
Stop bath: 5 - 10 cents (Kodak Indicator Stop)
Fixer: 15 - 25 cents (Kodak Rapid Fixer)
Photoflo: 1 cent??? (Kodak)

All in low cost Canadian dollars.

And all very rough estimates.

The Paterson is perfect for the job.

Developer, Fixer and Stop Bath question will attract hundreds of responses over the next 4 or 5 years with each person recommending their own preferences based on their experiences.

This recommender has only experienced the following developers:

ID 11 (D76) Mixed at home from raw chemicals to a recipe in an old text book. This was used for all films from 1956 to 1983.
HC110 This was used for nearly all films from 1983 to 2012
DiXactol for several film in 2012
Caffenol for several films in 2012
510-PYRO since 2012 to now
OBSIDIAN AQUA since 2012 to now

It is true to say that in general, for each developer, once a few films have been tried at different times and agitation routines, it is possible to arrive at a "standard" routine, the results from then on are predictable and satisfactory. The last four developers on that short list, however, seem to produce more than satisfactory negatives. The last two are outstanding.

Stop Bath used to be Ilford's but I now use some films that have delicate emulsions and so have ceased to use acidic stop bath and instead use tap water at the same processing temperature as the developer.

Fixer is ILFORD Rapid Fix diluted 1:4 i.e. 200mls of concentrate made up to 1 litre.

For economy, OBSIDIAN AQUA takes some beating. 1ml of solution A, 12.5 ml of solution B made up to 500ml will develop either two 36 exposure 35mm films, or one 120 roll film, or four sheets of 4x5, or one sheet of 8x10.


freepdfhosting.com/aa330a94ce.pdf

RR

Stainless or plastic? I use both and find stainless much easier for 120 but still screw up loading 35mm on it and ruin a shot or 2 now and then. Use whatever developer you can find locally, they all work. It will cost about a $1 per roll for either B&W or C-41.

Don't worry about it, if you can make Kraft Mac-n-Cheese from the box you can process film. Except when you completely mess it up.

Duuuuude... if you're coming from E6 to B&W, you're in for a surprise regarding "push" processing... it's a "whole nother ball game" as they say in Texas.

You will really want to do some film & dev tests - but a properly exposed & deveoped MF negative on a light box with a loupe - that sharpness is freaking 3-D. You may just come to love it.

For plastic reels: Samigon and Omega make plastic reels with much larger "guide ears" - piece of cake to load. I prefer to stainless, but I wash them and blow dry if I'm doing more film that day. Every 10 rolls or so, I scrub them with a toothbrush. No gunk issues for me.

HP5+ - if you're into shadow detail, my experience is this is a 200-320 iso film. At 800, your shadows may be pretty plugged up. If you want to shoot B&W at 800 & up, Ilford 3200 is actually a 1600-2000 speed film - worth testing.

f/16 said:

OK thanks everyone. I know this will vary,but about how much roughly does it cost in chemicals to develop a roll-1 USD, 2, 3, 5???

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It depends... For example a developer loke D76 can be used full strength and replenished (with a suitable replenished) indefinitely for cost savings.

Or it can be used 1:1 diluted with water and discarded after use.

Or used 1:3 as well.

I don't replenish D-76, use it stock, or 1+1, or even 1+3, but monitor the temperature when you mix for final use. Time and temp is critical for consistency. If instructions call for 10 minutes at 68 f (20 c ), than make sure that's the temp used and don't guess. My work area stays at a fairly constant 67-70 f so I never worry about temperature drop off during development. I temper all my chems to 68 and begin my routine.

Rick A said:

I don't replenish D-76, use it stock, or 1+1, or even 1+3, but monitor the temperature when you mix for final use. Time and temp is critical for consistency. If instructions call for 10 minutes at 68 f (20 c ), than make sure that's the temp used and don't guess. My work area stays at a fairly constant 67-70 f so I never worry about temperature drop off during development. I temper all my chems to 68 and begin my routine.

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Good advice, but I'll add - "instructions" are a starting point. To get the most out of your negs, you need to adjust development time and agitation for the look you're after with a particular film - from the way you shoot, what you prefer in shadow detail and highlight brightness, and how that all ends up on a final print. And the best case is you shoot negs that will print to your tastes without a lot of work and frustration. Most folks advise you test film to give you a print acceptable to you at grade 2 or so. I've found that to be good advice. Testing film isn't insanely expensive and you end up with really good intuitive knowledge when you're actually shooting.

I use D76 stock solution for developing and come up with $0.60-0.70 per roll, as MattKing estimated.

Find books in your public library on developing film. There are quite a few, many written around the 1970s as this is not a new craft. If you ask people for advice online you will get lots of different opinions and much of it is not good. And follow the data sheets for your film and chemicals

M Carter said:

Good advice, but I'll add - "instructions" are a starting point. To get the most out of your negs, you need to adjust development time and agitation for the look you're after with a particular film - from the way you shoot, what you prefer in shadow detail and highlight brightness, and how that all ends up on a final print. And the best case is you shoot negs that will print to your tastes without a lot of work and frustration. Most folks advise you test film to give you a print acceptable to you at grade 2 or so. I've found that to be good advice. Testing film isn't insanely expensive and you end up with really good intuitive knowledge when you're actually shooting.

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I agree, however the OP needs to get comfortable with a routine first. Using supplied times from the manufacturer is a great place to start, but testing for personal ISO should come after obtaining repeatable results and a personal routine is established. Then, by keeping extensive notes, you can start to decide what works for a given situation. I don't quite agree about shooting for grade 2 paper, I believe you should shoot and process to reach your personal taste, whether it be grade 1, 2, or whatever.