Need a detective here...

All,

When my father-in-law went into assisted care his daughters cleaned out his house. One of them found these two pieces of film in the pages of a book on mining engineering. They know of the house and its place in family history but we were hoping the film and automobile would narrow down the date. The film fits perfectly into a 35mm negative sleeve. The frame numbers are flashed reversed; the images are "correct". We think the car was his when he was in college. (He's 91 now.)


Thanks for any help,
s-a

Off the light table:

A quick RC print (nice ones going out for Christmas):

It's right around 1940, definitely pre-war. Still trying to narrow the make and model, but the year is 1939-41.

The film looks like it is 126 size instamatic film:
http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/126_film

From the (presumed) age of the photo, and shape of the indexing holes (and rebate), I'd guess more like Kodak Pony/828 film.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/828_film

Truzi said:

From the (presumed) age of the photo, and shape of the indexing holes (and rebate), I'd guess more like Kodak Pony/828 film.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/828_film

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Yep that's certainly 828 film. 126 is just too new to have shot a car of that age, also it's missing a second sprocket hole.

02Pilot said:

It's right around 1940, definitely pre-war. Still trying to narrow the make and model, but the year is 1939-41.

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WWII started in 1939 so it's not pre-war.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

WWII started in 1939 so it's not pre-war.

Ian

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True, but the US didn't enter the war til December 8, 1941, so the 1941 models were on sale, however briefly. Here're some shots of the '41 Mercury models:

http://www.google.com/search?newwin...mg..0.2.928.Z0wX8FRyCcw#imgrc=NieeI48aP7cZqM: Might be the car in the post....

1940 to 1941 Mercury

How would we know the car wasn't several years old when the photo was taken? Once the date of manufacture is identified, you'll only know the image is no older than that date but it could easily be newer.

Good point ONF.

Yep, has to be '40-41' as my Dad's '39 Chevy had running boards. They stopped that in 1940.

Old-N-Feeble said:

How would we know the car wasn't several years old when the photo was taken? Once the date of manufacture is identified, you'll only know the image is no older than that date but it could easily be newer.

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I can agree but... one usually shoots his car when it's new or freshly owned.

NB23 said:

I can agree but... one usually shoots his car when it's new or freshly owned.

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My first car was a beautiful 1972 Pontiac Firebird Formula 400... but I didn't own it until 1977. So, as you alluded to... NOT new, but freshly owned and it looked brand new. I was VERY proud of that car. How many of us photographed our first cars and those were several years old? What does the age of the car have to do with the photo?

My point is, a car in a photo is NOT necessarily an indication of the age of the photo OTHER than to say the image is not OLDER than the car... but the image could easily be NEWER than the car.

More facts needed...

Old-N-Feeble said:

Yes, but that's only an assumption. My first car was a beautiful 1972 Pontiac Firebird Formula 400... but I didn't own it until 1977. How many of us photographed our first cars and those were several years old?

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Your avatar scares me so I won't argue.

NB23 said:

Your avatar scares me so I won't argue.

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G-o-o-o-o-od.... bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!

Old-N-Feeble said:

My first car was a beautiful 1972 Pontiac Firebird Formula 400... but I didn't own it until 1977. So, as you alluded to... NOT new, but freshly owned and it looked brand new. I was VERY proud of that car. How many of us photographed our first cars and those were several years old? What does the age of the car have to do with the photo?

My point is, a car in a photo is NOT necessarily an indication of the age of the photo OTHER than to say the image is not OLDER than the car... but the image could easily be NEWER than the car.

More facts needed...

Click to expand...

True.

And what about the building in the background? Does the local historical society know which ones are shown and what their dates are?

Ian Grant said:

WWII started in 1939 so it's not pre-war.

Ian

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Well, it depends on who you're talking to. According to the Chinese, it began in 1931. As has been mentioned, the U.S. wasn't officially involved until 1941, meaning that cars for civilian use were still being produced and sold.

Regardless, my initial reply was ambiguous - sorry about that.

NB23 said:

Your avatar scares me so I won't argue.

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That don't scare me-this does...had one just like him.

Look here, Pyle! by David Fincher, on Flickr

Old-N-Feeble said:

My first car was a beautiful 1972 Pontiac Firebird Formula 400... but I didn't own it until 1977. So, as you alluded to... NOT new, but freshly owned and it looked brand new. I was VERY proud of that car. How many of us photographed our first cars and those were several years old? What does the age of the car have to do with the photo?

My point is, a car in a photo is NOT necessarily an indication of the age of the photo OTHER than to say the image is not OLDER than the car... but the image could easily be NEWER than the car.

More facts needed...

Click to expand...

ONF,

Yes, you're right!

First, thank you everyone for responding. I knew the APUG Brain trust could get it's teeth into both parts of this. Thanks again.

Second, the view is of Bridgeton, PA (USA). At one time it was about ten buildings along a creek and my wife's mother's family owned many of them. The car is by a hotel with a full length second floor porch. My wife only vaguely remembers staying at the place as a child. We're pretty sure the car belonged to her maternal grandfather but don't know if it was photographed in the "now" or still ran much later and was posed here for a picture. I was happy the film was not from an Instamatic. Although the car's paint looks good above the doors the bumper is surprisingly rough so it might be posed at a later date when the car was much older.

We found the negatives in this. Wife's father was a geologist and worked in mining and on some big projects for PennDOT, and the New River Gorge bridge in West Virginia:


For kicks, here's another scan looking along the road. The building with the pumps is their general store. During the Great Depression every man 'on the road' who stopped by was given a can of beans, a box of crackers and a cigar:

Much of Pennsylvania looks like this in a way that feels like it has always looked like this and always will. The deer probably have something to do with it.

Again, thanks. Every time we see my wife's father we try and pry more history out of him while there's still time. I'm giving him a set of prints so he can chew on it a bit, maybe release some memories.

s-a

I have some books by Walker Evans that showed pumps real similar to that but, it was from the 30's.

You have a "no earlier" date, and your wife's memories can probably narrow the range. Too bad you can't look-up the license plate number, though you may find documentation somewhere that could help.

semi-ambivalent said:

All,

When my father-in-law went into assisted care his daughters cleaned out his house. One of them found these two pieces of film in the pages of a book on mining engineering. They know of the house and its place in family history but we were hoping the film and automobile would narrow down the date. The film fits perfectly into a 35mm negative sleeve. The frame numbers are flashed reversed; the images are "correct". We think the car was his when he was in college. (He's 91 now.)


Thanks for any help,
s-a

Off the light table:
View attachment 120643
A quick RC print (nice ones going out for Christmas):
View attachment 120644

Click to expand...

The car is definitely post-1940. In 1940, Fords and Mercs had a wide running board. Beginning in 1941, the running board started to narrow and by 1948 was not much more than a"lip." It disappeared completely in 1949.

Pennsylvania is most cool.

Truzi said:

You have a "no earlier" date, and your wife's memories can probably narrow the range. Too bad you can't look-up the license plate number, though you may find documentation somewhere that could help.

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Of course... the date on the license plate!! Does the neg have enough resolution for you to read it?

Old-N-Feeble said:

Of course... the date on the license plate!! Does the neg have enough resolution for you to read it?

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No, not the date, but the plate is (from memory, not at home right now), [some character, maybe an 'A'] 2114. There's a dark band at the top, which would be Pennsylvania, right? There's probably a website that has a big DB and will sell me the search results for a few dollars or so.

Thanks,
s-a