Necessary to fix between sepia and gold?

Hi everyone,

I'm wondering if it's necessary to fix in between sepia and gold if I'm fixing after the gold toner? I'm unclear after reading Tim Rudman's discourse and several other posts on this and other sites.

My regiment is:

- partial selenium in HCA
- 40min wash
- partial bleach
- rinse
- thiocarbamide 90 seconds (800ml thiocarb 5% solution + 400ml hydroxide 10% solution in 4L working)
- rinse
- plain hypo fix 10 min
- hypoclear 10-15 min
- wash 30 min
- GP-1 45 sec - 90 sec
- rinse
- plain hypo fix 10 min
- hypoclear 10-15 min
- final wash 45 min

I'm using Ilford warmtone paper. Love to hear your feedback.

Michael

Michael Wesik said:

Hi everyone,

I'm wondering if it's necessary to fix in between sepia and gold if I'm fixing after the gold toner? I'm unclear after reading Tim Rudman's discourse and several other posts on this and other sites.

My regiment is:

- partial selenium in HCA
- 40min wash
- partial bleach
- rinse
- thiocarbamide 90 seconds (800ml thiocarb 5% solution + 400ml hydroxide 10% solution in 4L working)
- rinse
- plain hypo fix 10 min
- hypoclear 10-15 min
- wash 30 min
- GP-1 45 sec - 90 sec
- rinse
- plain hypo fix 10 min
- hypoclear 10-15 min
- final wash 45 min

I'm using Ilford warmtone paper. Love to hear your feedback.

Michael

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I wouldn't unless you bleach prior to sepia:confused:

The fixing stage after the gold tone, according to the Toning Book, is because halides have been re-introduced to the paper . . .I.e. out of an abundance of caution as there is no empirical evidence this step is necessary. It is just sound chemistry.

The step that I wonder about is, why are you limiting the time for the sepia toner? That step must go to completion or there will be undeveloped rehalogenated silver left in your print. Your mix is high in redeveloper and low in activator which makes for warmer tones but also longer redevelopment times.

Rich Ullsmith said:

The fixing stage after the gold tone, according to the Toning Book, is because halides have been re-introduced to the paper . . .I.e. out of an abundance of caution as there is no empirical evidence this step is necessary. It is just sound chemistry.

The step that I wonder about is, why are you limiting the time for the sepia toner? That step must go to completion or there will be undeveloped rehalogenated silver left in your print. Your mix is high in redeveloper and low in activator which makes for warmer tones but also longer redevelopment times.

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That's a good question. I was under the impression that 1.5 mins would suffice but I'm basing that off of a lot really vague information in the sources to which I have access. I'm also using 20L poured over a 53x68" image and I thought that that volume and time would be enough. How long would you tone for?

I suspected that there might be undeveloped halides left after the sepia treatment which is the reason why I fix, hypoclear and wash before going into the GP-1. My issue however, is really one of efficiency and time. The results that I get are great and consistent but if I can shave 30+ minutes off of a 5 hour processing time that would be awesome. Again though, I've had no issues with aesthetic, drying, mounting, etc. It's more a matter of saving time and chemistry.

Thanks for your response!

Michael

Okay, you are printing very large and tests/mistakes eat up a lot of chemistry, paper and time . . .me, in fresh chemistry I would bleach and sepia tone a decent sized test strip containing some highlights and have that on the side for comparison.

I am not clear on your dilution, but I like a stronger warmer mix so I can clearly see the toning progress in rapid fashion. It should be quite obvious when toning is complete. Much harder to tell when it progresses slowly.

In any event, I never fix after sepia because all the silver has been converted. Again, it would be sound chemistry to do so, but that assumes your toning is not complete. That is the real problem, unless you are doing stuff like sepia splits.

You wight save time if the selenium was your last stage.

You could also save chemistry by diluting your Selenium with water allowing for reuse and replenishment pretty much indefinitely.

This may not be your primary concern but with the quantity you must be using I'm sure it would help save a few bucks.

I don't know that I've seen proper silver gelatin prints that large. I'd love to see the end result (and your set up for printing and toning too).

Rich Ullsmith said:

Okay, you are printing very large and tests/mistakes eat up a lot of chemistry, paper and time . . .me, in fresh chemistry I would bleach and sepia tone a decent sized test strip containing some highlights and have that on the side for comparison.

I am not clear on your dilution, but I like a stronger warmer mix so I can clearly see the toning progress in rapid fashion. It should be quite obvious when toning is complete. Much harder to tell when it progresses slowly.

In any event, I never fix after sepia because all the silver has been converted. Again, it would be sound chemistry to do so, but that assumes your toning is not complete. That is the real problem, unless you are doing stuff like sepia splits.

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Thanks Rich. I've actually refined the process to the point where I can do all of my testing on 30x40 sheets where I only need two or three prints to nail the larger ones.

I was under the impression that the toner was at full working strength but I could totally be wrong. That said, redevelopment happens almost immediately and there is very little change after about 30 seconds. I'll have to do some further testing with this to confirm.

MattKing said:

You wight save time if the selenium was your last stage.

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Matt, I'm using the selenium first in hypoclear. I'll need to experiment with mixing up the order of my toners.

Simonh82 said:

You could also save chemistry by diluting your Selenium with water allowing for reuse and replenishment pretty much indefinitely.

This may not be your primary concern but with the quantity you must be using I'm sure it would help save a few bucks.

I don't know that I've seen proper silver gelatin prints that large. I'd love to see the end result (and your set up for printing and toning too).

Click to expand...

Hi Simon. I'm using selenium 1+30 in hypoclear and using it as a one-shot in this instance.

I've attached some iPhone pictures of a few finished prints and my set up. The largest of the prints' image size is 52x66 inches mounted onto dibond and floated in frame (I'm actually printing it a little larger for the final edition and APs). The process uses a single tray that can be elevated to an incline and where there are holes at one end that can be plugged. This allows me employ a gutter system - made of actual gutters and ABS pipe - underneath the holes where I can recycle my chemistry mid-process. I've been able to save a ton of chemistry with pouring my developer (8L), stop (8L), fix (8L) and toners (8-20L). At the same time I can plug and fill up the tray for either washing or rocking agitation which I use for bleaching and the selenium. I have the flexibility and latitude to engage almost any processing technique or toning regiment as you would an 8x10. It's been a monumental challenge to fine tune this process and it's taken over 3 maybe 4 years of trail and a ton of error.

Thanks so much for the responses everyone!

That is a crazy set up. If you are working up for a show, please inform because I am in the area and would love to see.

Rich Ullsmith said:

That is a crazy set up. If you are working up for a show, please inform because I am in the area and would love to see.

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I've often questioned my sanity for taking my darkroom this far. It's been a mastodon project, that's for sure. Hopefully everything will pay off one day. I'll let you know about future shows.

Attached is another picture with a buddy standing in the shot for a sense of scale.