Nail in the coffin

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Down Under

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The title of this thread, "nail in the coffin", is somewhat extreme as an analogy. Better to reserve it for the real crisis in the world today, Covid.

I've had very little to do with lith printing during my long lifetime in photography, but it does seem to me that when old products pass away and are buried, they have to be forgotten (so ask again about me and Kodak Panatomic-X film, ha!) and our focus should go on those new products that are available.

Even here in Australia, my sometimes visits to Vanbar Photographics in Melbourne, where I've bought most of my photo supplies since the 1980s, are a revelation. So many new products on the shelves are still available, sure, the prices are up, but thee seems to be a quite adequate substitute for anything we've used in the past that is no longer available. It's really up to us to adapt to these changes, which to me are part of the adventure in my photography.

We were using products in the 1960s and 1970s that now no longer suit - an example being the film and paper developers I used then, Kodak DK60a and Dektol. The former has long ago vanished, the latter is still available (if in limited supplies in Australia, and sometimes out of stock), and i've made the move over to other brands and other developers. My discovery of Phenidone, for example, rates to me very much like Edison and the light bulb - it opened up entirely new dimensions in my photography, and certainly improved my darkroom efficiency. So change is good and we have to move on. It's the only sensible way to do so many things in life.

Notwithstanding its fearful title, this thread is a fine example of this - all sorts of new ideas being offered for lith, an area that (as I've already said) I know little about, but have been interested in for a long time. So I'll now do some more reading and see what I come up with that I could maybe use in my home darkroom.

Mind you, it has taken me a long time to come to all these conclusions - maybe I've recently decided to change my mind about my past endeavors in photography and move on to new products and challenges, out of the general despair (and my growing annoyance and, well, yes, I'll say it, desperation) at the way the world is going to the pack (another "inflammatory" analogy, I know) since 2020.
 
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Sorry, I won't venture in "lithing" papers per se, since so many allegedly favorite ones have already disappeared. But I can't imagine there's anything really secret in the commercial developers. Formaldehyde is just for sake of the dead. My wife's former anatomy instructor from med school died from prolonged exposure to it.

So you got nothing. Colour me surprised.
 

DREW WILEY

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Well, if it were me I'd just look up some extant published formulas, or sleuth the MSDS sheets, and see how easily they might be tweaked with a substitute for formaldehyde, if that's what's hanging you up. I don't really like how any kind of current paper responds to premature "snatch" processing anyway, and lith would no doubt be analogous. So I have no reason to pursue it. It's all too paper specific. I tailor or tweak specific developer to specific papers. Do your own homework.
 
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grainyvision

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@earlz work is indeed great, and his recipes do work. I have been playing with Fomatone MG Classic paper. Kodalith 1:25 creates beautiful orange tones but no trace of infectious development, whereas Jordan's formula creates yellowish highlights and beautiful blacks from strong infectious development. I will get a box of Ilford MGV soon, since this seems to create nice prints with Jordan's formulas, too.

Hi! Sorry I've been gone for a while. Also, it's Ashley now :smile: It's great to know that some people are starting to mess with my formulas and confirm that they do actually work and I'm not crazy afterall. I can't even count the number of times I've argued with people about the results I get being supposedly impossible.

Personally what I've been enjoying lately is doing "DIY Lith" which is basically just mixing my own lith developer from raw chemicals just before usage in the darkroom. I do this using % solutions so that I don't need to worry about mixing or stirring for a long time (hydroquinone especially can be annoying). The solutions I use:

* 10% hydroquinone dissolved in either DMSO+propylene glycol or just propylene glycol. DMSO is non-toxic but does smell awful. Hydroquinone is extremely soluble in DMSO. PG alone requires heating to dissolve
* 10% sodium sulfite in water
* 10% potassium bromide in water
* 10% sodium hydroxide in water (1% citric acid is good to keep on hand if you overshoot the pH though). 20% potassium carbonate is easier to handle but more expensive and has a little bit less character
* 1% PEG-3350 in water (sold as MiraLax in the US)

An example usage of these would be something like:

* 30ml hydroquinone solution
* 12ml sulfite
* 5ml bromide
* 13ml hydroxide
* 8ml PEG-3350
* all added to 1L of room temp tap water. Pre-rinse all modern papers before development

These solutions are very easy to mix and use, but it can take some patience figuring out the best way to use them for your creative aims. I love being able to formulate a specific developer with a specific aim for each image. The worst part of this is that without formaldehyde, it is thus far not easily possible to formulate a long tray life developer. Most formulations I like will last only 1-2 hours, some last just 30m. However, I'm able to use papers and achieve results which I've not seen from any other off the shelf lith developer including EasyLith, LD20, and Arista Lith Premium.

Ilford MGV RC is my favorite paper to work with as well. It is easy to handle and extremely flexible in terms of the results you can get depending on how you formulate the developer and process the print. Fomaspeed RC is actually pretty fun too, it gives cold and grainy tones. For fiber, Fomatone MG Classic is excellent, and Fomatone FB (non-classic) can give good results usually (some finishes don't work though? still not 100% sure). Ilford Warmtone sometimes work but is a real bear to work with. I've yet to figure out why it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. Specifically it'll fail due to snowballs. The number of modern papers which are easy to work with are still fairly limited, but at least it's more than just Fomatone Classic available. Also using my custom formulations as a second pass developer is something I've been doing lately which is really fun. I really like using a copper sulfate based bleach for this.
 

grainyvision

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Sorry, I won't venture in "lithing" papers per se, since so many allegedly favorite ones have already disappeared. But I can't imagine there's anything really secret in the commercial developers. Formaldehyde is just for sake of the dead. My wife's former anatomy instructor from med school died from prolonged exposure to it.

EasyLith definitely has a very difficult to replicate trade secret ingredient in it which Moersch used to omit formaldehyde without compromising on tray life. I spent a solid year trying to replicate it and have thus far considered it impossible without much more exotic ingredients than I have access to such as potentially biological enzymes etc.

PEG of heavier molecular weights (800-6000) is what I've concluded is the biggest "secret" which makes most commercial developers distinctly better compared to published open formulas for lith developers. The increase in contrast and differences in results for lith printing are very easy to observe yourself and there are even some academic papers on the topic. No published formula I've seen includes PEG.
 

DREW WILEY

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I don't do anything resembling lith printing anymore. I did do some comparable experiments back when there was a variety of true graded papers containing certain ingredients no longer allowable during manufacture. I still have bottles of crystal sodium hydroxide on hand, empty labeled A & B bottles, certain substitutes for formaldehyde (no doubt expired by now). It's all fun; but for a long time I've been concentrating on regular silver gelatin printing (plus color). Don't have time for everything I'd like to do. If one has R&D lab connections, EVERY ingredient in any chemical soup can be precisely identified and quantified. But I suspect that most of us, including myself, simply prefer to behave like wizard alchemists instead, and add a bit of toe of frog or eye of newt or tongue of dog to the boiling cauldron to see what happens.
 
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