Nail in the coffin

Dwayne Martin · Sep 26, 2021

I wonder if COVID will be yet another negative factor in terms of products available for darkroom printing and film photography in general. I can only find two lith developers at the moment, arista and Moersch for example. I can’t even get my hands on any Moersch at the moment from american distributors because it’s back ordered and has been for weeks and weeks….

Or maybe I’m wrong and there’s more demand for them than before because we spend more time in the darkroom instead of going to social gatherings. I know that’s the case for me….

Hope it’s the latter…
D

glbeas · Sep 26, 2021

Its likely a bit of both. Maybe you should look into mixing your own if the ingredients are any easier to source than the premixed product.

Vaughn · Sep 26, 2021

Everything is getting held up by pandemic-related supply-train issues at all ends and middles of the train.

The fact we have too many unvacced people in the world is messing up the our supply lines.

BrianShaw · Sep 26, 2021

... or maybe few are interested/practicing lith anymore and the demand is so low that the supplies are low too because it's not a profitable item.

For me the final nail in the lith coffin happened in 1985.

Lachlan Young · Sep 26, 2021

Devorobin said:
and there’s more demand for them than before because we spend more time in the darkroom instead of going to social gatherings

Overall probably closer to the truth - Moersch's dev system is unusual in that it is largely free of the formalin etc nasties that many of the packaged lith A+B's used (and were likely withdrawn for this reason). Many other lith obsessives have been messing around with stuff like Kodak D8 etc.

ic-racer · Sep 26, 2021

Is anyone interested in burying film photography? Who and why?

Auer · Sep 26, 2021

Everything is fine. No really. It is.

gone · Sep 26, 2021

As Vaughn mentioned, it's likely to be supply issues. At Walmart today, almost all their bikes were gone, and many of their shelves have areas w/ no products. eBikes and their batteries were in short supply all over the world not that long ago (except in China), and now there's a glut of them because they're filling those huge container ships up w/ products again. That's kept the eBike and battery prices lower than last year though, so hopefully photography supplies will follow a similar pattern.

removedacct3 · Sep 26, 2021

BrianShaw said:
For me the final nail in the lith coffin happened in 1985.

I was 15 then and my youthful rashness made me miss it. So please fill me in… what else happened in 1985 besides Marillion releasing Misplaced Childhood?

faberryman · Sep 26, 2021

Devorobin said:
I wonder if COVID will be yet another negative factor in terms of products available for darkroom printing and film photography in general. I can only find two lith developers at the moment, arista and Moersch for example. I can’t even get my hands on any Moersch at the moment from american distributors because it’s back ordered and has been for weeks and weeks….

I did a lith print project a few years ago. Now, the developer is no longer being manufactured and the paper formulation has changed, neither of which has anything to do with the COVID pandemic. The next time I lith print, I'll be starting from scratch.

@DrHSTGonzo · Sep 26, 2021

BrianShaw said:
. or maybe few are interested/practicing lith anymore and the demand is so low that the supplies are low too because it's not a profitable item.

There still seems to be enough of us doing Lith printing to to keep the remaining manufacturers producing the chemistry. Sure the available lithable paper sources are quite slim, & none besides Unibrom actually still produce true infections development but eBay is full of old paper that are suitable.
We still have Moersch, Rollei & Arista EDU supplying chemistry. Sadly Fotospeed LD-20 is no more.
@Devorobin, maybe check & see if Ultrafine has their Lith developer in stock. I've seen others use it with impressive results. I've been thinking of trying their developer out just to see how it does.

grain elevator · Sep 26, 2021

@DrHSTGonzo said:
none besides Unibrom actually still produce true infections development

Huh, don't one or two Foma papers?

Lachlan Young · Sep 26, 2021

@DrHSTGonzo said:
Sure the available lithable paper sources are quite slim, & none besides Unibrom actually still produce true infections development

I think the problem is that people take certain books as absolute gospel truth and don't bother to properly investigate modern materials/ chemistry and how 'lith' seems to work - and how to possibly get around the additives in modern emulsion packages. In particular, additives that seem to be part of FB coating methodologies (but may not be in RC coating packages) appear to act against infections development.

@DrHSTGonzo · Sep 27, 2021

Yes Fomatone Classic works great, it's one of my favorite papers for Lith along with traditional B&W printing.

Lachlan Young said:
I think the problem is that people take certain books as absolute gospel truth and don't bother to properly investigate modern materials/ chemistry and how 'lith' seems to work

I absolutely agree with you, there are many ways to obtain excellent results that can not be obtained with a straight print & toning. It has been one of my favorite printing methods this last 5 years and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Patrick Robert James · Sep 27, 2021

It is probably a combination of demand is up and supply is down. It should right itself in time if things ever get back to whatever normal will be.

You might want to explore alternatives that you can mix yourself. Accumulating knowledge is always good.

pentaxuser · Sep 27, 2021

Well whatever the reason it doesn't appear to have caused the bottom to fall out of the market for Tim Rudman's Lith Printing book. Most of the sellers still want £140 +

pentaxuser

Lachlan Young · Sep 27, 2021

@DrHSTGonzo said:
Yes Fomatone Classic works great, it's one of my favorite papers for Lith along with traditional B&W printing.

I absolutely agree with you, there are many ways to obtain excellent results that can not be obtained with a straight print & toning. It has been one of my favorite printing methods this last 5 years and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I have a strong suspicion that a lith-only/ fixed grade paper is readily technologically feasible - potentially as good if not better than what went before (it may well be as 'simple' as using one of the three emulsions used in an average variable-contrast paper - or an adjusted blend thereof, but without the sensitisers/ dye ballasts that make them act as variable contrast) but that the potential market is too riven by differences of process, toning, desired visual effects, surface finish etc for a single paper to appeal well enough to be a sustainable product.

@DrHSTGonzo · Sep 27, 2021

I believe you're right, wet printing as far as a profitable enterprise goes is a niche market. Lith printing even moreso.
Look at Adox, they've been in RnD mode the past 8+ years working on a Polywarntone replacement. I really liked their new line of MCC papers released a couple years ago, but now that too is on hold due to supply issues. One can only hope they are able to start back up on MCC & start coating "PWT II" once it's ready. But at the end of the day it all comes down to what you said, sustainable profits.

One of the largest hindrances to usable modern paper for Lith is the incorporated developer added to the emulsion, and certain banned additives.
Alex *** (for the life of me I can't remember his full name) has been developing a new type of Lith developer that works around these issues. He's shown that many modern papers work very well.
Another method I'm thinking of trying as well is hand coating with a liquid emulsion - I've seen a few examples of printer's going that route as well.

grat · Sep 27, 2021

MrclSchprs said:
I was 15 then and my youthful rashness made me miss it. So please fill me in… what else happened in 1985 besides Marillion releasing Misplaced Childhood?

The internet Domain Name Service was created, which is the underpinning of the modern Internet.

But Misplaced Childhood is pretty damned good too.

Rudeofus · Sep 28, 2021

@DrHSTGonzo said:
Alex *** (for the life of me I can't remember his full name) has been developing a new type of Lith developer that works around these issues. He's shown that many modern papers work very well.

You may mean Jordan Earls ( @earlz ), e.g. in this thread.

@DrHSTGonzo · Sep 28, 2021

Rudeofus said:
You may mean Jordan Earls

Thank you! I was hoping someone would chime with his name. I have been very impressed with all the research and testing he has done. My brain was drawing a huge blank as to his name

Rudeofus · Sep 28, 2021

@DrHSTGonzo said:
Thank you! I was hoping someone would chime with his name. I have been very impressed with all the research and testing he has done. My brain was drawing a huge blank as to his name

@earlz work is indeed great, and his recipes do work. I have been playing with Fomatone MG Classic paper. Kodalith 1:25 creates beautiful orange tones but no trace of infectious development, whereas Jordan's formula creates yellowish highlights and beautiful blacks from strong infectious development. I will get a box of Ilford MGV soon, since this seems to create nice prints with Jordan's formulas, too.

DREW WILEY · Sep 28, 2021

A+B Lith developers are easy to mix from scratch.

Marco Buonocore · Oct 1, 2021

DREW WILEY said:
A+B Lith developers are easy to mix from scratch.

I'll take the bait, Drew. Throw me a bone, and give me an A+B lith developer that works well for lith printing (not negs). Bonus points if it doesn't use formaldehyde. Appreciate it.

DREW WILEY · Oct 1, 2021

Sorry, I won't venture in "lithing" papers per se, since so many allegedly favorite ones have already disappeared. But I can't imagine there's anything really secret in the commercial developers. Formaldehyde is just for sake of the dead. My wife's former anatomy instructor from med school died from prolonged exposure to it.

Nail in the coffin

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