Nagaoka whole plate (?) - what have I gotten myself into

negativefunk · Oct 27, 2022

Hi all,

I was toying with the idea of getting a 5x7 field camera somewhere in 2023, but as things happen, I pulled a trigger a tad recklessly on something I saw on the interwebs.

It's a LF Nagaoka, it's beautiful, but it looks like it's non-standard, so I wanted to see if I can get some hints out of the community. Rather than trying to sell it to then look for a 5x7, I would make it operational, but I know very little about LF photography so I would like to understand if mine is a fool's errand

Holder size & negative availability.
Can someone help me to confirm it? From what I found on the web it looks like it is whole plate-ish, but I am not really sure (pics below)
I shoot only B&W and it seems negatives of this size are available only during the yearly Ilford ULF run. Also I was hoping to develop them with something like the stearman press tanks (which I don't have yet), so I suppose I'll have to find another solution

5x7 reducing back - does it exist?
this would probably make things much, much easier (including finding lenses that cover, etc)

Lens plate
Thats another odd one. The lens plate I got (without lens) is a wooden one roughly 5x4.5 inches, with a thread *roughly* 3 inches wide. The lens "hole" seems wider to what wikipedia suggests as copal's threads, and I am not sure whether some kind of readily available boards are compatible. Any hints?

Thanks in advance!

Nitroplait · Oct 27, 2022

Do you have a picture of the camera?

negativefunk · Oct 27, 2022

Sure

Ian Grant · Oct 27, 2022

Whole plate film is available through the Ulford ULF annual run, it will be expensive. The only countries who made Whole plate cameras were the UK, India, and Japan the latter two making copies of British Houghton cameras.

I had a whole plate De Vere monorail camera with Half plate and 5x4 reducing backs, there were some whole plate film holders with the camera when I bought it 45 years ago, but they were falling apart. You need Internation fit film holders, they fit a spring back, as opposed to the more common, older, book-form holders. I din;t know what make mine were, there's one on eBay, I think it's Kodak Ltd, as it looks very similar to some of my Kodak Ltd Half plate holders.

A reducing back would be easier, as long as it's an International spring back, it doesn't matter if it's Half plate or 7x5, or even 13x18cm, as the film holders all have the same outside dimensions. If you can't find a Whole plate to Half plate reducing back there were quite a few 10x8 to Half plate/7x5 reducing backs. What ever you get may need modification.

Ian

Rick A · Oct 27, 2022

I own an 8x10 Nagaoka, yours looks pretty much the same as what I have. I made my own lens boards, same size as yours it's easy if you own (or have access to) a bench saw. No telling what that mounting flange fits, measure the diameter and if possible the thread pitch. I see you have a second lens board, do you know what it's drilled for? If you are handy you could find a cheap 5x7 back and make an adapter to use it on this. I would also contact B.S. Kumar who sells here if he could locate a reducing back for it.

Steve Goldstein · Oct 27, 2022

The only countries who made Whole plate cameras were the UK, India, and Japan the latter two making copies of British Houghton cameras.

Ian, my American-made Poco and Seneca Improved View, both from the early 20th century, would take some issue with that statement. But it's probably true that US production of whole-plate cameras ended long before it did in other countries, certainly Japan.

negativefunk · Oct 27, 2022

Thanks all!
I am fairly ignorant as per the terminology, but the back with the ground glass can be pulled, and I can fit the double-sided film holders between the glass and the camera. Not sure if this is an international spring back though.

the reducing back seems to be the easiest way around, should I come across one that fits. I'll follow your advice on this.
Perhaps the holders themselves could be adapted so there is a way to hold a 5x7 film, say, in the middle of the holder itself, and the ground glass could be marked to show where the 5x7 frame limits are. not sure how practical this could be though-

@Rick A - the other one is not a board (pic below), but quite a crafty cloth shutter, spring loaded! It can set times from 1/15 to 1/90 in /15 increments. I've seem some threads on making the boards in-house, I could ask a friend that does some woodworking and see what he thinks

RJ- · Oct 27, 2022

Negativefunk -

your camera dimensions are standard for the Nagaoka/Charten/Wageesari (sp?) Japanese and then later India marketed early 20th century whole plate cameras. Yours has a spring loaded back to adapt for the Kodak whole plate double darkslide holders although you might have to check the T distance of your film plane coincides due to the variation of Nagaoka cameras with the Kodak standard for whole plate.

These are more common with bookform wooden holders and a latch hinge for accepting custom holders using dry glass plates. The condition of yours suggest that someone has previously modified it to work it for modern film.

You can use any cut down orthofilm (easier to see under safe lamp); positive direct photographic paper; normal photographic paper - not just the Ilford ULF+ or Kodak special cut order.

Your idea to modify a back for 5x7 is a lot of work: a dedicated half-plate back accepting 6 1/2 x 4 3/4 half plate exists for this camera. The whole plate format is a beautiful intimate hand held format for a private viewer within arms reach and holds its own for spatial size particularly for contact print: 5x7inch is rather smaller like a postcard format.

The era of your spring loaded King cloth shutter is appropriate for the camera; I'm sure you can swatch out the flange for the barrel and recreate any of your own choosing, or even add a shuttered lens instead of using a rear Packard style or front / rear Thornton Pickard style. Your shutter mostly resembles the Thornton Pickard style cloth blind mechanical shutters. Your camera is a different aesthetic and mindset from the metric modern camera era and had many iterations over decades, in various woods and forms. The best had tropical hardwoods (don't expand in humid conditions) and lightweight compared to modern field cameras with double extension.

Always wonderful seeing more of these older cameras come back into circulation. Hope you can work with it without destroying it into an 5x7.

Kind regards
RJ

negativefunk · Oct 27, 2022

Hi RJ and thanks for this - both for the info and the suggestions (as both in "to suggest" and suggestive).

Direct positive paper is something I did not think of and could be fun.

I was not thinking of butchering it. I am still unfamiliar with the whole LF process and I don't know how a reducing back works. I was assuming it was something I could swap in and out without hard modifications.

The other hypothesis was 3D print something to fit inside the negative holders, so that a 5x7 negative could be inserted instead of a whole plate one. I could then just mark on the glass where the 5x7 borders lie. Again, I am unfamiliar with LF, but... it could work maybe?

If I can make this work I'd rather retain the possibility of using it also as it was originally intended, even if as an occasional treat.

Ian Grant · Oct 27, 2022

Steve Goldstein said:
Ian, my American-made Poco and Seneca Improved View, both from the early 20th century, would take some issue with that statement. But it's probably true that US production of whole-plate cameras ended long before it did in other countries, certainly Japan.

Yes Steve, I was aware that there were some early US made whole plate cameras, but as you say the size went out of production years earlier than the UK & Japan. Indian camera used book form holders as did early Japanese copies.

With the increased cost of shipping from the US to Europe plus the Import Duty and then VAT compounded on top the cost of an item and its shipping cost, that adds approx 33%. So what could appear to be a bargain becomes costly

Half plate/7x5 spring backs do appear for reasonable prices here in the UK, Kodak Ltd and Gandolfi made wooden field cameras for some time after WWII, Kodak switched to metal bodied cameras around 1960, Gandolfo eventually fizzled out around 5 years ago. I had 4 Half plate/7x5 spring backs, one is earmarked for my Gandolfi, a second I modified for a parts Seneca City View, the third is a 10x8 to Half plate reducing back, probably Kodak, I sold the fourth, but none were expensive.

negativefunk said:
Thanks all!
I am fairly ignorant as per the terminology, but the back with the ground glass can be pulled, and I can fit the double-sided film holders between the glass and the camera. Not sure if this is an international spring back though.

the reducing back seems to be the easiest way around, should I come across one that fits. I'll follow your advice on this.
Perhaps the holders themselves could be adapted so there is a way to hold a 5x7 film, say, in the middle of the holder itself, and the ground glass could be marked to show where the 5x7 frame limits are. not sure how practical this could be though-

@Rick A - the other one is not a board (pic below), but quite a crafty cloth shutter, spring loaded! It can set times from 1/15 to 1/90 in /15 increments. I've seem some threads on making the boards in-house, I could ask a friend that does some woodworking and see what he thinks
View attachment 320082

The King shutter is for front mounting on a barrel lens, i's a copy of the Thornton Pickard roller bling shutters. They can be useful.

Ian

Ian Grant · Oct 27, 2022

negativefunk said:
Hi RJ and thanks for this - both for the info and the suggestions (as both in "to suggest" and suggestive).

Direct positive paper is something I did not think of and could be fun.

I was not thinking of butchering it. I am still unfamiliar with the whole LF process and I don't know how a reducing back works. I was assuming it was something I could swap in and out without hard modifications.

The other hypothesis was 3D print something to fit inside the negative holders, so that a 5x7 negative could be inserted instead of a whole plate one. I could then just mark on the glass where the 5x7 borders lie. Again, I am unfamiliar with LF, but... it could work maybe?

If I can make this work I'd rather retain the possibility of using it also as it was originally intended, even if as an occasional treat.

I have some Kodak Ltd Half plate film holders that were modified to use 5x4 sheet film. I need to photograph them for someone else, there's no need to 3D print anything. The method is really neat and simple. They used exposed and fully developed scrap film.

I'll try and take some images tomorrow.

Ian

ags2mikon · Oct 27, 2022

I have a Rittreck view with the whole plate back and holders. EVIL bay has 6.5 x 8.5 shanghai GP-3 film right now, only 169.99 with free shipping. (I'm not affiliated) It is a nice size format when contact printed on 8x10 paper.

Sal Santamaura · Oct 27, 2022

Ian Grant said:
...The only countries who made Whole plate cameras were the UK, India, and Japan the latter two making copies of British Houghton cameras...

One more you missed, and not only made, but still makes. China:

6.5x8.5 — Chamonix View Camera

The Whole Plate (WP) format–6.5x8.5 inches–has a long history and enjoys special affection among photographers using platinum and other alternative processes. Chamonix WP cameras are primarily designed to meet the need of such photographers desiring a light-weight modern camera. The cameras are mad

www.chamonixviewcamera.com

Holders too:

Film Holders — Chamonix View Camera

Chamonix provides film holders for every format--4x5, 5x7, 5x8, Whole Plate,8x10, 11x14, 7x17, 8x20, 4x10, 12x20 etc. Each is made to a very high standard of craftsmanship. The materials are wood (holder itself) and carbon fiber (dark slide). All of our holders are lighter and more rigid than common

www.chamonixviewcamera.com

Also, Japan wasn't limited to copies of anything:

The Online Photographer: More about the Ebony SV Wholeplate

web.archive.org

TheYoungPretender · Oct 27, 2022

I know that plate holders from Chroma Camera can be completely customized to any size. It might be worth checking to see if that would be an option. Possibly they could also make a sheet film insert in a more common size such as 5x7 - I haven't seen them offering it but it might be worth a shot to at least ask.

RJ- · Oct 27, 2022

Ian Grant said:
I have some Kodak Ltd Half plate film holders that were modified to use 5x4 sheet film. I need to photograph them for someone else, there's no need to 3D print anything. The method is really neat and simple. They used exposed and fully developed scrap film.

I'll try and take some images tomorrow.

Ian

super Ian! That's great!

Ian Grant · Oct 27, 2022

Sal Santamaura said:
One more you missed, and not only made, but still makes. China:

6.5x8.5 — Chamonix View Camera

The Whole Plate (WP) format–6.5x8.5 inches–has a long history and enjoys special affection among photographers using platinum and other alternative processes. Chamonix WP cameras are primarily designed to meet the need of such photographers desiring a light-weight modern camera. The cameras are mad

www.chamonixviewcamera.com

Holders too:

Film Holders — Chamonix View Camera

Chamonix provides film holders for every format--4x5, 5x7, 5x8, Whole Plate,8x10, 11x14, 7x17, 8x20, 4x10, 12x20 etc. Each is made to a very high standard of craftsmanship. The materials are wood (holder itself) and carbon fiber (dark slide). All of our holders are lighter and more rigid than common

www.chamonixviewcamera.com

Also, Japan wasn't limited to copies of anything:

The Online Photographer: More about the Ebony SV Wholeplate

web.archive.org

You're right but look at the prices. Here in the UK Whole plate FP4 or HP5 is £136.30 for 25 sheets, Quarter plate is £122 for 25 sheets, a bit of anomaly, I paid around £35 for 50 shhets of Shanghai GP3 (Orwo) last week.

Of course Japanese and Chines field cameras have progressed from the pre-WWII copies of Houghton cameras made by their Indian subsidiary, but they still share many of the features of the early Houghton cameras, with a lot of improvements though. Hence the reason I've been using a Wista for around 35 years.

But then other Japanese and Chines camera models are based on and expanded from Dick Phillips view cameras, a US design.

Ian

RJ- · Oct 27, 2022

The esteemed Istvan Soltesz of Argentum Cameras created his own design independent of the US/Japanese design:

explorator_eng

The Explorator III is no longer made in whole plate format but the Explorator I is still in production from Hungary, Europe.

negativefunk · Oct 27, 2022

Ian Grant said:
I have some Kodak Ltd Half plate film holders that were modified to use 5x4 sheet film. I need to photograph them for someone else, there's no need to 3D print anything. The method is really neat and simple. They used exposed and fully developed scrap film.

I'll try and take some images tomorrow.

Ian

That would be brilliant! I was thinking of sliding inserts, tetris-style, to reduce the useable area... but the simpler the better!

markjwyatt · Oct 27, 2022

"...what have I gotten myself into"

Sounds like you have a lot on your plate!

negativefunk · Oct 27, 2022

markjwyatt said:
"...what have I gotten myself into"

Sounds like you have a lot on your plate!

Quite so! I found that there's some pleasure in making things work so I think I'll go on with the flow

Ian Grant · Oct 28, 2022

Here's one of the converted Half plate holders.

This was a film holder, you'd need card or aluminium sheet of the right thickness to compensate for the thickness of the glass. Essentially first there's a pice of film that fits the holder cut out to take the smaller size film, with that slight curve bit cut away to allow easier film removal. Then two guides to slide the dilm under and into place. Finally, there's a piece of old film on the flap.

With thin card to show loaded.

With the end flap closed the film can't slip out once loaded. There was film loaded in one of these when I bought my Kodak Specialist 2 Half plate camera - essentially an upgraded 2D model never made or sold in the US. These holders obviously had a lot of professional use.

It is possible these were sold like this by Kodak Ltd. Anyway it's easy to do.

Ian

bhaning · Oct 28, 2022

I have a whole plate camera similar to yours. I also have a Ansco 5x7 camera. I built an adapter that the Ansco 5x7 back fits into that is the same size as the whole plate back. I also have the 4x5 reducing back for the Ansco. So I can use 4x5, 5x7 and whole plate film holders on the whole plate camera. I'm looking forward to trying all 3 formats when my schedule allows. So if you can find a cheap 5x7 camera you may be able to adapt its back to your camera if you have some woodworking skills or know someone who can built it for you.

Peter Schrager · Oct 28, 2022

2 words
Richard Ritter
You want to make it difficult go ahead
Otherwise talk to Richard if u want to make photographs

AnselMortensen · Oct 28, 2022

I second Peter Schrager's advice....
Richard Ritter made a 5x7 back for my Seneca Improved View whole plate camera.

negativefunk · Nov 2, 2022

I wanted to thank everyone for the inputs here. I am exploring the various options presented whilst I educate myself . Keen to eventually make this work!

Nagaoka whole plate (?) - what have I gotten myself into

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