Mytol

wintoid · Oct 12, 2010

I can't see the particles with my naked eye. When I rescan, they are still there. I've tried blowing both sides of the negative, and there's no movement of the particles.

I've developed other films with PC-TEA, using the same batch of fixer, and they have no particles. All film was TriX.

wintoid · Oct 12, 2010

OK thanks all, I have a few things to try out now. I'm going to mix some fresh XTOL at a higher temperature than before. I will mix fresh fixer too, and maybe do my fixer in a 2-bath setup. It's going to be a week or two now before I get time to investigate further. I'll report back!

Thanks again.

Ian Grant · Oct 13, 2010

One thing you must not do is shake re-used fixer before use, I've seen that done and it can cause problems.

Ian

wintoid · Oct 14, 2010

OK I discovered my local pharmacy can order in distilled water for me. It's quite expensive, at £17 for 5L (about $27), which wipes out the savings from using XTOL vs DDX for example, but I figure I'd like to try it once just to see if it fixes the problem. Either way, I learn something, so it's all good.

Picking the bottle up on Saturday, and will hopefully get to try it out over the weekend.

nworth · Oct 14, 2010

wintoid said:
OK I discovered my local pharmacy can order in distilled water for me. It's quite expensive, at £17 for 5L (about $27), which wipes out the savings from using XTOL vs DDX for example, but I figure I'd like to try it once just to see if it fixes the problem. Either way, I learn something, so it's all good.

Picking the bottle up on Saturday, and will hopefully get to try it out over the weekend.

Distilled water is available in most supermarkets at very low cost. You can also use household water purifiers (like the Brita series) to get effectively deionized water that is suitable for almost all photographic needs.

clayne · Oct 14, 2010

Yeah just go to the water section, if you have one, and look at the descriptions on the water. There is bound to be one that uses steam distillation or similar. I'm not talking bottled water but the plastic 3-5L jugs.

wintoid · Oct 14, 2010

I'm in the UK. The only water I can get in supermarkets is mineral water. I used to use a Brita filter, but when I switched to deionised water, many of my problems went away.

wintoid · Oct 15, 2010

I can get deionised water locally for £2.50 per 5L so that's OK. Distilled I can't find anywhere, except via this chemist at £17.50. I worked it out, it's actually still cheaper than using DDX

RobertV · Oct 15, 2010

Your Pharmacy has WFI (Water For Injection) Pharmaceutical water, made by MQ reverse osmose system followed by a strong UV light to destruct also all organics. You can use it for photographic purposes but it's over done.

Fresh deionised or water via a Brita filter (Maxtra) would be fine.

wintoid · Oct 15, 2010

Brita water definitely wasn't OK. Deionised was much better. I was hoping distilled would completely solve the problem, but it sounds like you're saying it won't

RobertV · Oct 15, 2010

If your tap water is pretty bad (for photographic purpose) you can have all kind of problems.

You just have to try what is working for you. But normally you will not find any difference between demi- or Pharmaceutical water for photographic purpose.

Gerald C Koch · Oct 15, 2010

Kodak added a chelating agent to its Xtol formula so using distilled/de-ionized water is no longer necessary.

RobertV · Oct 15, 2010

All commercial developers have ingredients like EDTA to "catch" the metal ions but it can be insufficient.

Gerald C Koch · Oct 15, 2010

RobertV said:
All commercial developers have ingredients like EDTA to "catch" the metal ions but it can be insufficient.

EDTA cannot be used in ascorbate developers like Xtol since it catalyses the oxidation of ascorbate. If your water is very hard and you are experiencing a problem then you must use an inorganic chelating agent like Kodak Anti-calcium #1 with these developers.

There is an easier solution and that is to boil the water you use for 5 minutes and allow it to cool. This will causes the calcium hardness to precipitate out. Allow the water to remain overnight and either filter or decant off the clear portion for use.

RobertV · Oct 15, 2010

There is an easier solution and that is to boil the water you use for 5 minutes and allow it to cool

Correct and by boiling also less oxygen in the water.

Mike Reyburn · Oct 15, 2010

After using Xtol in 5L packages for the past 12 years, I began to notice last year that all my negatives had fine white particles on emulsion side after the final wash. Removing the particles required rinsing each side of the negatives (all formats, TMAX 400) in running water. I had to rub my fingers gently on the negatives to remove the particles in the running water stream. I tried changing the water from one brand of distilled water to another, filtering the final wash, changing the wetting agent, etc. - but nothing worked. It was only after I mixed my last batch and the problem disappeared that I realized the cause must have been not completely mixing Parts A & B of the Xtol.

wintoid · Oct 15, 2010

Mike, that sounds just like my situation. Thanks for your comment.

I mixed up my last packet of XTOL using distilled (actually purified) water tonight. I did it at 30C, and I was very careful to stir in part A and let it dissolve completely, then left it another 15 minutes with occasional stirring before proceeding to part B.

Hopefully I'll get the chance to try this out over the weekend.

wintoid · Oct 15, 2010

Oh, and I'll try that water boiling trick too. Thanks to all.

wintoid · Oct 16, 2010

OK I think I'm giving up on this. I gave it my absolutely best shot.

XTOL mixed as above
Stop bath admittedly reused (the one flaw)
Fixer mixed with fresh fixer from a new bottle, with deionised water
Ilford wash cycle in tap water followed by some more time in running tap water
Fresh photoflo solution mixed with deionised water and photoflo

It's no better As this is the last XTOL on the shelf, I don't think I'll be buying any more. Thank you to everyone who tried to help.

RobertV · Oct 16, 2010

but it sounds like you're saying it won't

Yes, I was already afraid of this result.
Very annoying.

Depending on the film you have used maybe changing to HC-110. For slow speed films Rodinal can be a good choice. The last one is not critical at all for the water quality and preformance.

Both developers have an excellent storage time of the concentrate.

Best regards,

Robert

wintoid · Oct 16, 2010

Hi Robert,

Thanks for all your help.

I have Rodinal and HC110 on the shelf, and they're both fine. I use them occasionally. I think the bottles are about 7 years old now.

I think I'm going to stick with PC-TEA for medium format and D76 for 35mm. I'm pretty much 100% TriX these days.

Simon

RobertV · Oct 16, 2010

To give you a tip for Rodinal 1+50 and Tri-X (400) E.I. 250: 9:00 minutes (at 20C), first 30S continuous then every 30S 1x slowly.
Tight grain and very sharp negatives. Rodinal is a high acutance developer. Best developing temperature for Rodinal 18-20C.

Good luck!

Robert

wintoid · Oct 16, 2010

Such a shame. I do love the TriX XTOL combination. Here's one of my results. You can see some of the particles, which I failed to clear up, next to her elbow.

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Sirius Glass · Oct 16, 2010

wintoid said:
Such a shame. I do love the TriX XTOL combination. Here's one of my results. You can see some of the particles, which I failed to clear up, next to her elbow.

Dead Link Removed
Dead Link Removed by wintoid, on Flickr

How much time for Tri-X in XTOL? Are you replenishing and using undiluted?

Steve

wintoid · Oct 16, 2010

That was 1:1 at 22C for 7 mins 40 seconds.

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