Mytol

wintoid · Oct 9, 2010

I really like XTOL, but I always seem to get some sort of particles on my negatives when I use it, so I thought perhaps Mytol might give me identical results without the particles.

My question is, does Mytol give nearly identical results to XTOL, or is it just that it uses the same development times?

A49 · Oct 9, 2010

wintoid said:
I really like XTOL, but I always seem to get some sort of particles on my negatives when I use it, so I thought perhaps Mytol might give me identical results without the particles.

I wouldn´t try home brewing to avoid this. The problems could be even harder with many accidental factors influencing the the developing. I think your particles could come from unsolved developer parts or water impurities that settle in your negatives. You could try first to use distilled water or at least filtrated water for the whole process, if you don´t take this already. Filtrate your mixed Xtol before using it too. A coffee filter or two into each other would be enough for trying with filtrated water / developer.

Best,
Andreas

wintoid · Oct 9, 2010

Yeah I'm at the end of my tether with XTOL. I use deionised water, and I filter it through a coffee filter. XTOL always gives me particles. D76 (and many other home brews) is absolutely fine, but I prefer the results with XTOL.

A49 · Oct 9, 2010

Since I have more or less "particles" from time to time with different developers too, I would be interested, how yours look like. Mine are producing white points in the print if i use an enlarger with condensor lighting. If I use the enlarger with a colour head the white spots in the prints are gone and everything is fine. I also found out that the particles are not exactly in the layer where the grain is situated. If I play with focus with a short focal enlarging lens at open aperture I can only focus one layer at a time: the particle´s layer or the grain layer.

Before you home brew Mytol you could also take the FOMA Fomadon Excel developer into consideration that is said to be 99% like Xtol. I heard that chemically everything is the same but the Xtol´s Dimezone-S (the most convinient Phenidone variant) is replaced by Phenidone in the Excel. The results of both developers should be comparable.

Best,
Andreas

wintoid · Oct 9, 2010

Hi Andreas,

I'm using a hybrid workflow, so I know some people would prefer I don't discuss this in too much detail. Essentially, the scans I get show white points, which I suppose means the particles are opaque.

I actually brewed some Instant Mytol earlier today when I realised I already have all the chemicals I need. I had a roll of TriX to develop which is not too important, so I am waiting for the negs to dry right now. Fingers crossed!

A49 · Oct 9, 2010

wintoid said:
I'm using a hybrid workflow

I guess the light of scanners is very "direct" to produce maximum resolution and sharpness comparable to the condensor light of enlargers and therefore unfortunately brings out "well" all the nasty little faults in the negative.

Good luck for your negatives then! I´m very curious if the spots are gone (I hope that!) and if the overall results are as good as with original Xtol.

Andreas

Sirius Glass · Oct 9, 2010

If you use warm water and mix in a pail you can avoid the particles.

Get a plastic paint bucket. Mark the inside for 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 liters and 0.5 and 1.0 gal.
Fill to 3 liters with warm water, pour in some XTOL slowly while stirring. Do not pour in all the XTOL at once. Continue stirring until all the poured XTOL is in solution, the resume pouring in the XTOL slowly while stirring. When all the XTOL is in solution add the water to 1.0 gal. If you measure out 3 liters of water and then add the 1.8 liters you will have more than 1.0 gal or 3.8 liters.

BTW, did you mean Mitol and not Mydol?

Steve

wintoid · Oct 9, 2010

I still got the spots with Instant Mytol, although perhaps slightly less than with the XTOL.

I have one pouch of XTOL left, so perhaps I'll try your suggestion Steve, and my thanks for that.

CBG · Oct 10, 2010

Something, maybe, isn't quite making sense here, at least for me. I'm wondering what part of the processing is producing the unwanted markings.

If the OP had said there was crud in final wash water, particles on the film would make perfect sense. Most particle issues come from problems at the end of the process, not the start.

Where are the particles coming from? Could they be in the developer and be carried into the film during the wetting phase, never to be fully rinsed away?

Makes me wonder if a pre-rinse in filtered water might make sense here. Adding distilled water to "pre-fill" the film with water so that there would be less tendency to suck stuff into the film might help. I usually avoid pre-rinses, but this may be an exception.

Another thing I am wondering is if reels, tanks or hangers are retaining particles or debris from session to session and need a major scrubbing to break the cycle?

If indeed the developer is the issue, what is causing particles from one developer, but not another? Is there some component in the OP's local water supply that makes some part of Xtol in particular not dissolve fully? Do any of the chemists here know of such a thing?

The reason this has me scratching my head is that I get lots of some sort of precipitate /particles in my home mix D-23 and related developers, but never any evidence of them on the film when it has gone all the way through the process.

Sirius Glass · Oct 10, 2010

I only had a particle problem when I did not mix using the method in Post #7. I have never had the problem since.

If you use the method in #7, you will have removed problems from mixing. After that, if you still have problems, you will have eliminated one common cause.

Steve

wintoid · Oct 10, 2010

Hi,

Thanks for the further replies.

Let me clarify my process.

1) I use stainless steel reels (Hewes) in a metal tank with a plastic top. I soak all this in warm tap water once I've finished one film to clean it.
2) My XTOL is mixed with deionised water which I buy in a bottle. I mixed at room temperature (usually around 22C), and I did it by putting 4L deionised water into a 5L bottle, pouring in the XTOL A, and then inverting the bottle until I couldn't see particles, then the same for XTOL B, then the top up with more deionised water.
3) I develop at 1+1 dilution, with more deionised water.
4) I keep a pre-mixed stop bath, made with deionised water. I chuck this when the colour changes.
5) I keep a pre-mixed fixer, made with deionised water. I chuck this every so often.
6) I wash by leaving the tank under running tap water for 10 minutes
7) I do the final rinse/wash with a photoflo solution, made with deionised, and I keep this as a "working solution" for 4 or 5 films.
8) I hang in the shower cubicle, which is largely undisturbed

All of this works fine with anything except XTOL (and now Instant Mytol)

I'm trying an Ilford wash cycle right now, to see if this helps with Instant Mytol.

Sirius Glass · Oct 10, 2010

Mix at 30ºC or more, the precipitate will be less likely to form.

Steve

clayne · Oct 11, 2010

You need to mix the chemicals in a bucket in a manner similar to what Sirius mentioned. IMO XTOL mixes fine in anything around 20C and above but in no way would I ever dump an entire packet in at once and then shake it up or invert continuously. Now if that's all a misunderstanding and you do actually mix it in a traditional fashion then I can only recommend mixing at higher temps or trying to find distiller water.

Follow the directions on the package and you'll have less issues. Don't sweat the occasional white residue around the container cap either. It won't hurt anything.

Also have you even verified XTOL is even the source of your issues? Powder in the developer won't make it past the entire process at all. So you should verify that you see clear undeveloped portions of film as if powder were covering an area preventing development (which shouldn't really be significant with agitation). This would produce black spots in the final product, not white spots.

In short I don't think your issue is XTOL.

RobertV · Oct 11, 2010

Now you know why I do not like powder developers

But for doing this ultimate Ultra Fine Grain developer test I have too.

But about own experience: If you can not dissolve Xtol (5 ltr.) in the right way Excel W27 (1 ltr.) doesn't help either.

Normally it's the temperature of the water. It must be warm but not hot for Xtol because then it will damage the Ascorbic Acid component. Using demi- or destilled water for two reasons:
Get rid of the Calcium salts and get rid of some metall ions which will cut down the lifespan of the stock pretty much.

clayne · Oct 11, 2010

I personally find nothing wrong with powdered developers. It's the method not the medium.

Hasn't even been proven to be a developer issue anyways.

wintoid · Oct 11, 2010

Is there any reason I should consider distilled water instead of deionised?

RobertV · Oct 11, 2010

Is there any reason I should consider distilled water instead of deionised?

Dionised water runs over an Anion- Kation flter and a Carbon filter. Destilled is not containing any organics too. Normally it's made via R.O. and a strong UV lamp.

But the problems could be have the cause of your quality of water. You could also consider a Brita (TM) filter. Then you can make your own Demi- water. Personally I have only good experienced with it. But for sure it also depends of the tap water quality which is going in.

But if you have the right quality of water Xtol should not be any issue at all. But indeed in your example you can see how the end result is depending on the local water available.

Gerald C Koch · Oct 11, 2010

Take a look at this site for a couple of ascorbate developers which work better than Mytol.

Dead Link Removed

clayne · Oct 11, 2010

1. After you pour out the developer do you see particulate?
2. Are the spots on the film clear or white/colored? Or do the scans result in black spots or white spots?

wintoid · Oct 12, 2010

@Jerry - I've tried other ascorbate developers (e.g. PC-TEA) with some success, but I'm really looking for the XTOL look now

@clayne - I didn't notice particles, but I've dumped the XTOL now. Next time I mix, I will be watching more carefully. The scans have white spots on them.

clayne · Oct 12, 2010

wintoid said:
@Jerry - I've tried other ascorbate developers (e.g. PC-TEA) with some success, but I'm really looking for the XTOL look now

@clayne - I didn't notice particles, but I've dumped the XTOL now. Next time I mix, I will be watching more carefully. The scans have white spots on them.

Think about it though, if the *resulting* scans have white spots on the positives - that means the spots consist of matter on the film or silver that has been completely developed in contrast to surrounding grains.

Have you put the negatives under a loupe to examine what the exact nature of the spots are?

wintoid · Oct 12, 2010

Agreed, the spots are obviously something which does not transmit light. I had assumed that meant a particle of some sort. I suppose it could be developed silver, but that seems unlikely, or at least I can't think of an explanation for that.

I haven't tried a loupe. In fact, I am not sure I have one. I'll try and inspect the negs when I get home from work tonight if I have time.

clayne · Oct 12, 2010

wintoid said:
Agreed, the spots are obviously something which does not transmit light. I had assumed that meant a particle of some sort. I suppose it could be developed silver, but that seems unlikely, or at least I can't think of an explanation for that.

I haven't tried a loupe. In fact, I am not sure I have one. I'll try and inspect the negs when I get home from work tonight if I have time.

Sounds good.

Use a flipped 50mm or similar lens as a temporary loupe.

wintoid · Oct 12, 2010

No. Anything's possible, but I haven't had this problem with other developers. With PC-TEA, for example, the negs are as clear as a bell.

Ian Grant · Oct 12, 2010

Never had an issue with and particles on the film in approx 20 years. The only time I've had an issue it was our water supply, (using a different developer), but I'd agree with Alessandro check your fixer it may just be a coincidence that it's happening with Xtol.

Ian

Mytol

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