Mystery camera

MikeUK · Aug 18, 2018

Hello everyone.

I have inherited what I guess is a vintage 4x5 dry plate camera, and as a fairly basic 35 mm shooter I am completely out of my depth! Can anyone please help me figure out what this lovely beast is? I've attached several photographs to illustrate.

The 6 inch f4.5 Ross Xpres lens lens is fairly common and has a pretty good reputation it seems, c.1920s
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/information-on-coverage-of-ross-lenses.14642/

That size lens was apparently made for 4x5, hence my making the assumption on the plate size.

The leather box that the camera came in says the London Stereoscopic & Photographic Co. with both Regent St. and Cheapside addresses on. Box is a bit of an odd fit so I'm not convinced that it belongs to the camera.

I've been told that the shutter going up to 1/1000th makes the camera a bit younger than it might be? Don't know the dates though.

So, there you go. Hopefully people here enjoy a mystery as much as I do!

Thanks

Mike

AgX · Aug 18, 2018

Welcome to Apug!

Sorry, I can't help you.
But some collectors here never would have bought a camera from the "cheapside"...

jim10219 · Aug 19, 2018

Well that lens, if original to the camera, was first made around 1914. The London Stereoscopic & Photographic camera company went defunct in 1922. If the box belongs to the camera, and it might because they did start to get away from stereo cameras during that time period, I’d say there’s a good chance the camera was made between those dates. Judging by the looks and construction of it, I’d say that span of dates isn’t out of the question.

1/1000 speed shutters aren’t that uncommon on a focal plane shutter like that one. The shutter curtain itself doesn’t move anywhere near that fast. It just has a small enough slit to mimic that speed by only exposing a small portion of the film (or plate) at a time. And while most films weren’t all that fast back then (ISO 16 would be considered fast), a 1/1000 shutter speed wouldn't be completely unheard of. Muybridge used shutter speeds at least that fast or faster to prove horses could have all 4 feet off the ground when they galloped way back in 1878.

So that’s my guess.

Ian Grant · Aug 19, 2018

It's a Thornton Pickard strut press camera, same focal plane shutter as the Ruby reflex, I can look up the exact model.

Ian

Ian Grant · Aug 19, 2018

Best I can find is a 1921 advert for a Thornton Pickard All Weather Press camera very similar but I think a slightly newer shutter, the earlistr TP strut camera was a Unita but had a Unit shutter, your camera has the Ruby (unit) shutter.

Your camera's shutter was Patented in 1912 so it's no earlier, I've just checked my 1921, 22 & 23 BJP Almanacs and they definitely show a diffeerent shutter. If you search Google for Thornton Pickard All Weather Press Camera you'll see you have the same camera Be aware the dates given are wrong on some sites claiming it was made 1929-35, yours was made between 1912 - 1920 approx.

Same shutter with ts mirror box from a Ruby reflex

It's a self capping shutter, they come out as a complete unit.

Ian

Ian Grant · Aug 19, 2018

Should have added it's a Quarter Plate All Weather camera, they only made the one size, and I know the diameter of the speed scale That helps confirm the size.

Typically a Quarter plate camera like yours and my Dallmeyer Press Reflex (re-badged Ensign) have a 6" lens, my 6x9 Ruby Reflex has a 5¾" lens, and my 5x4 Soho Reflex a 67/8" lens.

Often these cameras were used with film packs, something that John Thornton patented, Kodak licensed his patent for their film packs and holders. You may be able to find a roll film back that fits.

Ian

MikeUK · Aug 19, 2018

Thank you all for your help; even AgX for bringing a bit of humour to the topic.

Ian, that is such a generously helpful and detailed response.

Does anybody have any idea what the switch/lever is for, below the shutter speed/winder? On some siimilar Thornton Pickard cameras on the web it seems to be labelled on/off.

Mike

AgX · Aug 20, 2018

MikeUK said:
Ian, that is such a generously helpful and detailed response.

Ian is our expert on british plate cameras.

Ian Grant · Aug 20, 2018

MikeUK said:
Thank you all for your help; even AgX for bringing a bit of humour to the topic.

Ian, that is such a generously helpful and detailed response.

Does anybody have any idea what the switch/lever is for, below the shutter speed/winder? On some siimilar Thornton Pickard cameras on the web it seems to be labelled on/off.

Mike

The lever below the shutter speed dial is the shutter release, with a cable release alongside.

The tiny button on the underside of the speed dial is pushed down (not in) to adjust the slit width of the two shutter curtains using the inner speed dial button, this needs to be done before the shutter is cocked.

Ian

MikeUK · Aug 20, 2018

Thanks again Ian. In the middle of moving flat but I will give that button a go in the near future!

Mike

MikeUK · Aug 20, 2018

Just got a reply on another forum that reckons that the serial number puts the lens in the 1930s.

Mike

MikeUK · Aug 20, 2018

Speaking of serial numbers, I have something that might be a serial number saying 10226.

Ian Grant · Aug 21, 2018

MikeUK said:
Just got a reply on another forum that reckons that the serial number puts the lens in the 1930s.

Mike

Definitely not that late, the retailer ceased trading in 1922, also the shutter is different on the last version. After WWl. Douglas Rendell, in the Thornton Pickard Story states they introduced a new Victory reflex and "an improved version of the All Weather camera which never achieve the popularity of its rivals like the VN which it resembled in appearance". VN is Van Neck, but Goerz made the first camera of this style the Anschutz in 1894 but the slit width had to be set by hand, it was set by dial and tension in the 1905 model and wasn't self capping like the Thornton Pickards.

All illustrations of the All Weather camera I have from 1920 onward show a different shutter which will be the Improved version Rendell mentions.

The 1912 Patent number is on the side of the shutter, TP and other manufacturers stamped part numbers on all wooden parts I've never seen a serial number on a TP camera and I have a few

Ian

Ian Grant · Aug 21, 2018

The last advert for this camera in a BJP Almanac is in the 1923 copy where it's sold as an APeM focal plane camera. APM - The Amlgamated Photographic Manufacturers Ltd, was formed in 1921. TP formed an agreement with APM for 5 years, Gray Pickard joining the board. APeM was the equipment manufacturing side and became Soho Ltd. The film/paper part Rajar & Marion &Co were renamed APeM and sold to Liford.

Ian

jim10219 · Aug 21, 2018

You wasted your brain on cameras Ian! You could have cured cancer with that thing!

MikeUK · Aug 21, 2018

Thanks Ian. So I won't bother with serial numbers and the extra info is all very interesting.

Are you saying that the lens cannot be as late as the 1930s?

I will have a play with the buttons when I get access to the camera again in a few days. I never realised that there was a button/lever under right underneath the speed dial on the same mount. I do know that the shutter can be activated using a button on the front of the camera that can be seen in profile on the dials photograph. The other lever a bit further below the dial and separate from the dial mount, which actually looks to have a gap beneath it, did not appear to do anything but my testing was far from thorough.

If by film pack you mean dark slide type things, then quite a few came in the box. However, if you mean something that could hold something like the all together less fiddly and commercially process-able 120 film then i would be very interested. I have also been researching going straight to paper and/or hybrid processing but it's all quite a step forward from where I am at the moment with analogue photography (grand total of 4 rolls of 35 mm film shot this year and commercially processed!)

Is the camera missing a wire frame to use in conjunction with the folding square frame on the top for composing the picture?

Mike

Ian Grant · Aug 22, 2018

Mike, the lens is probably much newer than the camera and from the mid 1930's. Yes it's probable the wire finder's been lost, later versions used an Albada finder, that's a concave lens behind the direct finder at the back which you haven't got.

Film packs were once quite common, about a half of an inch thick holding multiple sheets of film, very much thicker than a glass dark-slide plate holder, useless these days as film packs disappeared decades ago.

120 or 620 roll film backs were available but there wasn't a standard fit so it can be hard getting the correct one.

Ian

MikeUK · Aug 22, 2018

Thanks again Ian. And I've found a pdf of The Thornton Pickard Story.

Ian Grant · Aug 22, 2018

That's the book, it usually fetches high prices for the printed copy, I picked mine up cheap at a Camera fair. It's not that good on the history and the TP products but there's nothing better.

Ian

Jeremy Greenaway · Nov 22, 2018

I've returned to the fold from the large format gang! Just to make an observation on your explanation of the 'mystery' camera . . . thought very briefly it was a VN, but realised quite quickly it was related to the Ruby.
Main reason for this, however, is the VN. When I started in the darkroom of the sadly no more Devonshire Press/South Devon Journal in 1959, we were still using plate cameras and continued to do so until two or three years later, although by then I'd moved on - and was using a Pentax. As well as the VN (which took SUPERB images and with its sports finder was brilliant for sport) we had MPP 5x4s. Not a single 35mm camera in the tool shelves!!! One of the guys had a Rollei, but was scorned by The Chief Photographer, who was still using flash powder . . .
Must stop - but huge memories of that first year as a trainee.

Mystery camera

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