My Paterson tank the inner section popped out half way.

I used to use the older Paterson tank with the much more secure mid section screw on. The one that the liquid leaks out when you tip it upside down. I now have the newer version that does not leak. Today I was developing the film and was pouring out the developer and gave it a slight wiggle and the entire mid section popped out with my film reels. Miraculously I think my film looks fine.

1. I am wondering why this was so. I thought in my bathroom with the lights on, the film would been overexposed.

2. Other people had this accident with the newer Paterson tanks?

3. When you guys develop 120 format film. At the end there is a piece of sticky tape. Do you take that off or do you leave it on?

4. I got some Ilford FP4+ 120 film by someone. This batch expired in 2014. It is a 10 roll brick. Did Ilford reduced the length of the film? I have 4 rolls of the stuff hung up to dry and 2 of them are about 1 or 1.5 inches shorter. No wonder it was more difficult to load.


Cheers.

The only thing I can think of is that the lid was not locked, always make sure that you turn the lid until it locks into place with a click, I have used Paterson tanks since they first came out and currently have 4 of the super system 4, and as yet I have never had this happen, as far as the sticky tape on 120 film I always leave the film attached to the backing paper and just drop the backing paper down, which keeps the film taught and prevents it from curling up, then when I come to the sticky tape I simply tear it free and develop the film with it on. As far as I know ilford has never reduced the length of 120 film, but as I never use Ilford film, but the length of the film should not make it any harder to load, just drop the backing paper with the film attached and it should load easily whatever the length, If the film is sticking then take a pencil and run the lead around the groves of the reel and it should just slip in

I think the film length is unchanged. Had a look. It was the paper when you put it thru the take up spool it had a habit of flicking out. I had to hold it in as I turn the take up spool rather than wind it on....

The reason your film didn't fog noticeably when the funnel, core, and reel popped out is that, despite immediately exposing the undeveloped halide (at least in the outer layers), it would then have taken minutes to accomplish enough development on that fogged halide for it to show. I presume you got it closed back up and into stop (or at least a wash that removed most of the developer, then into fixer) within a minute or so -- hence, though you can't be fast enough to prevent the light from exposing the film, you were fast enough to keep the newly exposed parts from developing.

I have had this happen to me.
The red ring on the Paterson Super System 4 tanks is what the funnel lid clips into. That ring is glued to the black body of the tank. I had the glue fail on one of my tanks - it probably had been applied incompletely when the tank was manufactured.
I used a generic version of "super glue" to glue the ring back on.
The tank works fine now. It didn't leak light or fluid before the red ring came loose, and it doesn't leak light or fluid now.
I have also failed to clip the lid into place properly, but that error showed up on the first inversion!

Donald Qualls said:

The reason your film didn't fog noticeably when the funnel, core, and reel popped out is that, despite immediately exposing the undeveloped halide (at least in the outer layers), it would then have taken minutes to accomplish enough development on that fogged halide for it to show. I presume you got it closed back up and into stop (or at least a wash that removed most of the developer, then into fixer) within a minute or so -- hence, though you can't be fast enough to prevent the light from exposing the film, you were fast enough to keep the newly exposed parts from developing.

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That is good to know. Yes, I took seconds to pop the reels back inside the tank. That was after the development. So within seconds I poured the stop bath into it.

MattKing said:

I have had this happen to me.
The red ring on the Paterson Super System 4 tanks is what the funnel lid clips into. That ring is glued to the black body of the tank. I had the glue fail on one of my tanks - it probably had been applied incompletely when the tank was manufactured.
I used a generic version of "super glue" to glue the ring back on.
The tank works fine now. It didn't leak light or fluid before the red ring came loose, and it doesn't leak light or fluid now.
I have also failed to clip the lid into place properly, but that error showed up on the first inversion!

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I have the 5 35mm reel Paterson tank also, the one with the red ring. I just had a look at it, given it was my first time, maybe I didn't click it properly. I had a decent wiggle with it and it was secure. I was doing it for the first time inside a dark wardrobe.

rayonline_nz said:

That is good to know. Yes, I took seconds to pop the reels back inside the tank. That was after the development. So within seconds I poured the stop bath into it.

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My old homebrew solution for processing sheet film in daylight was a set of tubes made from ABS drain pipe, with light trapped pour-through spouts in one cap. Because the film was in conctact with the plastic on the base side (curled around to fit into the pipe), I used to actually pull the film out and fix in a tray. The wisdom is that you're safe to turn on the lights after your print or film has been in the fixer for a minute, but I'm here to tell you, after the stop bath, you're fine, unless there's some reason you'd need to go back to developer. Sure, yes, film and paper will "print out" -- show density without any development. But they'll take minutes or hours to do so unless they're specifically formulated for it. Developed film can be in the light for the entire time it takes to fix, and never show enough fog to notice -- as long as development has been stopped first.

Paterson has some quality control issues. I have a 2-reel tank that worked fine from day one. I decided to pick up the 3-reel so that I can do two rolls of 120 (or a set of 4x5), and the 3 reel tank was incredibly difficult to get to lock initially. I had to work at it repeatedly, and even now, while it clicks securely, it doesn't feel as positive as the 2-reel tank.

I had the red ring fail on a Paterson 3 and a Paterson 4, causing bad leaking during inversions. One I fixed with super glue, one with silicone caulk. Both have been fine for several years but I recommend the silicone just because it looks a lot neater than the super glue one.

Paterson tanks seem to be made from cheap. brittle plastic. The internal funnel design pumps huge volumes of oxygen through your developer with inversion agitation. Users report that they commonly leak like a sieve. The reels are a common design, and they seem to require much more effort to keep clean or risk loading jams. They are not less costly than several options which seem to avoid these issues, so what is their attraction? My sense is that it is herd mentality at work.

Randy Stewart said:

Paterson tanks seem to be made from cheap. brittle plastic. The internal funnel design pumps huge volumes of oxygen through your developer with inversion agitation. Users report that they commonly leak like a sieve. The reels are a common design, and they seem to require much more effort to keep clean or risk loading jams. They are not less costly than several options which seem to avoid these issues, so what is their attraction? My sense is that it is herd mentality at work.

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I have 3 of them and the plastic actually feels quite sturdy, definitely not "brittle". Two are about a year old and they do not leak during inversions. The 3rd one is several years old and it leaks just a tiny bit, maybe a couple of drops per session: the lid plastic is much softer, but it's much easier to close though. The reels are fine, I don't mind spending 10-15 seconds scrubbing them after use with an old toothbrush. Overall I find very little to complain about... The lid clipping could use improvement, I guess, but that's minor.

The last time I used steel reels+tank was in middle school. As I remember it, they were easy to use as well, so I just don't think it's a big deal for most people. One thing Paterson tanks are good at is how quickly you can get liquids in and out of them.

I particularly enjoy it when someone compares about the durability of their Paterson System 4 tanks - they were replaced with the Super System 4 in 1981!
For those who enjoy history: https://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Paterson/Developing_Tanks.html
FWIW, other than my one incident with the red ring (easily repaired) my used Super System 4 tanks work well and don't leak when I put the outer, sealing lid on correctly.
I do prefer the wide flange AP clone reels though - for 120.

Randy Stewart said:

Paterson tanks seem to be made from cheap. brittle plastic. The internal funnel design pumps huge volumes of oxygen through your developer with inversion agitation. Users report that they commonly leak like a sieve. The reels are a common design, and they seem to require much more effort to keep clean or risk loading jams. They are not less costly than several options which seem to avoid these issues, so what is their attraction? My sense is that it is herd mentality at work.

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Inversion agitation will always mix air with your developer -- if you don't leave air space on top, you won't get the agitating action you need for even development. The Paterson leaves, perhaps, a little more air than some -- especially than a stainless tank, which in my opinion might leave too little -- but unless your'e reusing a stock solution developer, it won't matter; you wont' see enough oxidation in 10-12 minutes with D-76 1+1 or XTOL 1+1 to matter (in fact, it doesn't seem to make a difference even in Rodinal-clone 1+49).

I've had zero problems with my one Paterson (two-reel size). Things I like about it: it does not leak during inversion, like my Nikor stainless tanks invariably do, if I remember to burp the inversion lid when I seal it (and again after first inversion set, if I'm doing color -- the warmer solution expands the air remaining in the tank). The reels are much easier to load (especially for 120) than stainless, in my experience -- I like stainless okay in 35mm, but have never had good results with them in 120. And the Paterson lets me do something a stainless 120 reel won't: load two rolls of 120 on the same reel. Load the first, push it all the way to the core, and then load the second. Works great because the reels were made for to accommodate 35mm and 220, and lets me get the same efficiency, in terms of film area per liquid volume, as 35mm.

I honestly don't recall what I paid for my Paterson -- I bought it used, on eBay, in 2003.

Additionally, if you have the three-reel size Paterson, you can add 4x5 sheet film capability with the Mod54 at very reasonable cost (barely more than a Yankee cut film tank, and the same inversion agitation you're used to from 35mm and 120).

Why would pouring fluid into a funnel, which drains into a column that is then dispersed around the bottom of the container (essentially filling it up from the bottom, instead of top down) "pump huge amounts of oxygen in"? I would think, if anything, it would lessen the splashing and sloshing that happens with other designs. Most developer product sheets I've seen suggest letting aerated water sit for a few minutes before being used in development anyway, so again-- I see no reason for the oxygen saturation of the water to increase, or for more air bubbles to be created.

Personally, both of my Paterson tanks are absolutely water-tight, but I usually make two passes around the top edge pressing down to ensure that the lid is tight all the way around, and of course, the channel needs to be empty of all debris. I know I complained about my tank (and I still think their quality control needs a little work), but both tanks are light and water tight, and seem reasonably durable. I don't intend to stomp on them, or kick them, or hit them with a hammer, so I'm not sure how durable they need to be.

I will admit the ball-bearing design in the reels need a little work. It's a weak spot, and I now make a point of checking them for free movement before attempting to load film, but when they work, they work well. I've also ordered a couple of the wide-flange reels, we'll see how they go.