My negatives curl and it affects my sharpness!

Andrey · Jan 23, 2008

I've had the same problem with APX using club chemicals.

The negative curves very strongly when dried and stays that way. When I put it in the film holder it is not flat and the edges are a bit blurry.

Why does this happen?
How can I change this?

Film: APX
D76, vinegar stopbath, water rinse 2-3 times, fixer, water, distilled water

All the chemicals have been mixed in distilled or deionized water... I don't remember which.

Help

Ray Heath · Jan 23, 2008

Andrey said:
I've had the same problem with APX using club chemicals.

The negative curves very strongly when dried and stays that way. When I put it in the film holder it is not flat and the edges are a bit blurry.

Why does this happen?
How can I change this?

Film: APX
D76, vinegar stopbath, water rinse 2-3 times, fixer, water, distilled water

All the chemicals have been mixed in distilled or deionized water... I don't remember which.

Help

g'day Andrey

why are the negs that colour?

what are "club" chemicals?

have you tried soaking and hanging to dry?

maybe you need to use glassed neg carriers

Ray

Trevor Crone · Jan 23, 2008

Andrey,

Are you using a weighted film clip at the bottom of the film when hanging it up to dry? Even with some of the film clips I've used I've felt the need to increase their weight by adding strips of lead to them.

At the printing stage you may need to use a double glass negative carrier to keep them flat.

Regards,
Trevor.

Snapshot · Jan 23, 2008

How do you dry them? Do you use clip weights? If so, make sure the weight is distributed evenly and they are not just on weighing down the centre portions of the film. Are you wiping your film of excess water or allowing it to drip-dry? Allow the film to drip-dry and this will reduce the concave curl you are seeing but it will extend your drying time. Are you using anything to accelerate the drying process, like a drying cabinet? Avoid using them if possible. I use plenty of APX 100 and I do see some curl but by doing the above has significantly reduced this tendency.

Andrey · Jan 23, 2008

Ray Heath said:
g'day Andrey

d'day to you too, Ray

why are the negs that colour?

Wrong color balance on my d*g*tal cam.

what are "club" chemicals?

D76, indicator stop from kodak, Fixer of sorts.

have you tried soaking and hanging to dry?

They were soaked when I developed them. I did rinse them, so I thought more soaking wouldn't help.

maybe you need to use glassed neg carriers

Can't afford one... and I'm hoping there's a better solution for 35mm.

Andrey · Jan 23, 2008

Trevor Crone said:
Andrey,

Are you using a weighted film clip at the bottom of the film when hanging it up to dry? Even with some of the film clips I've used I've felt the need to increase their weight by adding strips of lead to them.

I'm using clothespins. Stupidly, in the center of the film.

This is what happens to people who never take a darkroom class. :rolleyes:

At the printing stage you may need to use a double glass negative carrier to keep them flat.

Regards,
Trevor.

Since, it's the second suggestion for 35mm glass negative carrier... how much do they go for? I thought anti newton glass was mostly used for sheet film and it degrades quality noticeably. No?

Andrey · Jan 23, 2008

Snapshot said:
Do you use clip weights? If so, make sure the weight is distributed evenly and they are not just on weighing down the centre portions of the film.

I used two cheap wooden clothespins. On the center of the film.

Are you wiping your film of excess water or allowing it to drip-dry?

I wiped the water.

Allow the film to drip-dry and this will reduce the concave curl you are seeing but it will extend your drying time. Are you using anything to accelerate the drying process, like a drying cabinet? Avoid using them if possible. I use plenty of APX 100 and I do see some curl but by doing the above has significantly reduced this tendency.

Thanks for the suggestions. I think it should improve me quite a bit!

I'll try a set of weighted banker's clips, and if that doesn't work, I guess I'll have to shell out for a proper "photographic clothespin"

Snapshot · Jan 23, 2008

Andrey said:
I used two cheap wooden clothespins. On the center of the film.

I wiped the water.

Thanks for the suggestions. I think it should improve me quite a bit!

I'll try a set of weighted banker's clips, and if that doesn't work, I guess I'll have to shell out for a proper "photographic clothespin"

Well, I think the answer is clear. The clothes pins weigh down the centre and enhance the curl. In addition, wiping the water removes most of the moisture. This promotes curling as the drying rates of the backing and emulsion are different and are accentuated during the shorter drying period.

Andrey · Jan 23, 2008

Nice, I tried to use the banker's clips and it works much much better, at least so far.

imazursky · Jan 23, 2008

Before i built my drying cabinet, i cut the film into more manageable section.
12 or 15 frames each and hung them to dry with large weighted clips. Worked like a charm.
When i built my cabinet, i had the same curling problem on long rolls of 35mm and 220.
I used the same cutting technique and my negs came out nice and flat.

pcyco · Jan 23, 2008

hallo

i also has the problems with the apx-ers. but they are flattend in my negative-collecting-book.
i heard that the last apx-films maybe were cutted out of 120 basematerial.

but i have no problems with printing them.

ag

thomas

Trevor Crone · Jan 23, 2008

Andrey said:
Nice, I tried to use the banker's clips and it works much much better, at least so far.

They should be ok for the time being, just add some suitable material to them to add a bit more weight. As I've already mentioned I've used strips of lead wraped around the film clips. You can always clip on another 'banker's' clip to add a bit more weight if you feel the need.

Good quality anti-Newton ring glass should not effect the quality of printing regardless of film format.

Sparky · Jan 23, 2008

I've found that forced-air drying them will lead to this condition - esp. if not allowed to stabilize both sides of the film vis a vis humidity... the other thing I'll say is that I tape the film into the carrier, making sure it's taut - I've NEVER had a flatness problem - nor a sharpness problem.

Aurelien · Jan 23, 2008

Do you heat when drying? I have noticed that all agfa films curls like what you show when heating. But after cooling, they become flatter.
The solution is to put it in archival acetate paper, under heavy weight, for a day at least.

Vaughn · Jan 23, 2008

I vote for a non-hardening fix and no heat when drying...

Vaughn

gainer · Jan 23, 2008

Glass on the top side of the negative carrier will usually do the trick, although Newton's rings are a possible side effect. If the glass and the side of the negative that contacts it are perfectly clean, the rings are less likely. You don't say what enlarger you are using, so its not possible to say how much a full glas carrier would cost. Some enlargers will tolerate 2 pieces of picture frame glass with a sticky tape hinge at one end. If you can get your own fixer, non-hardening fixer will help minimize the curl, which is due to the gelatine shrinking. 35 mm film has no gelatine coating on its backside, so when the hardener shrinks the gelatine, the film curls. Some brands of fixer come with separate hardener solution that can be used or not. Modern films do not need the extra hardening.

The scanner thinks your film is color negative, which has an orange bias that must be compensated in printing.

Andrey · Jan 23, 2008

The enlarger is an omega D2. On BH a 6*7 carrier for it is 120 bucks.

So far, it's more expensive that all my darkroom kit together.

The drying issue might be connected with it being winter and the air being very dry. So the whole apartment is a drying cabinet.

eric · Jan 23, 2008

Was it hardner fixer? I usually get this type of bowing if I use fixer with hardner.

Jim Jones · Jan 23, 2008

Storage affects film curving. I've always stored 35mm negatives in film wallets that, when folded up, hold the film strips face to face and back to back. When tightly packed, the negative wallets effectively hold the negatives flat. They usually stay flat while printing. Unfortunately, negative wallets seem to have disappeared from the market. Typical negative file sheets do not provide this flattening if they are stored flat with the negatives all facing the same direction. Perhaps storing the sheets alternately face up and face down would flatten the negatives. The sheets could be folded in a zig-zag pattern that provide the same flattening as do negative wallets.

I dry 35mm negatives with a clothespin at each end. The desired flattening occurs in storage. Darkroom humidity is another factor contributing to curling.

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Jan 23, 2008

Curling with film from major manufacturers is usually the result of drying in too dry conditions. Kodak, Fuji, Ilford (and Agfa as well) have a good anti-curl layer in the film itself. With products from Efke, Foma, or the like, that anti-curl layer is way less effective.

That said, my Tri-X still curls a little bit, especially in winter. So I turn on the shower for 2-3 minutes, full hot water. After that I hang my film on the curtain pole. Slow drying in humid air helps avoid curling. If it's still curling, I just put my negs in printfiles, and forget about them under a stack of books for a few days. Note that if you do that, you have to make EXTRA sure there is no dust or little bits of crap near your negs, because they will get embedded in the film from the pressure!

Mike Kennedy · Jan 23, 2008

Think I shall try the "shower" technique Michel.My place is very dry and a dust mites paradise.

Eric Rose · Jan 23, 2008

I have been using a far amount of Classic Pan 400 in 35mm. This stuff is the pubic hair of film LOL. Very curly. I dry it by hanging in my darkroom which is rather cool. Then I cut it into 5 image strips, insert into sleeves and then put the entire neg sheet into a very large and heavy book. This I put on the floor and pile all my Edward Weston books on top to add weight. The hope is some of Ed's karma will infuse into my images as well. After a couple of days they are nice and flat and pretty much stay that way.

gainer · Jan 23, 2008

Andrey said:
The enlarger is an omega D2. On BH a 6*7 carrier for it is 120 bucks.

So far, it's more expensive that all my darkroom kit together.

The drying issue might be connected with it being winter and the air being very dry. So the whole apartment is a drying cabinet.

I think you should be able to go to a frame shop and get a 5" x 7" piece of glass and a piece of mat board to fit, cut a hole in the mat board the size of your neg, hinge the glass and mat board together with a piece of masking tape, and use that kluge as a negative carrier. The mat board goes on the bottom.

Andrey · Jan 24, 2008

gainer said:
I think you should be able to go to a frame shop and get a 5" x 7" piece of glass and a piece of mat board to fit, cut a hole in the mat board the size of your neg, hinge the glass and mat board together with a piece of masking tape, and use that kluge as a negative carrier. The mat board goes on the bottom.

Why can't I just tape it to a normal neg carrier?

gainer · Jan 24, 2008

Andrey said:
Why can't I just tape it to a normal neg carrier?

If you're talking about the negative, what good will that do? If you're talking about taping the glass, you'll have to be the one who knows if that will work. It has been about 50 years since I saw a D2 or its predecessor! Any way you can get a piece of glass on top of the negative to hold it flat against the bottom of the carrier is fine.

My negatives curl and it affects my sharpness!

Andrey

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My negatives curl and it affects my sharpness!

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