My local camera shop, business booming. Anyone else?

pentaxuser said:

However like Tom I do wonder how sales of trad b&w film( not C41 chromogenic) are doing given that it doesn't seem to be part of the hipster film revival and how few labs now exist that can develop such film Presumably someone in the U.K. other than the few Brits who inhabit Photrio is buying b&w film but I wonder where they all are and wherever they are they seem to be managing without our help

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As you say there must be a fair number of people purchasing analogue products who are not discussing it on this or other familiar forums to support the number of dealers here in the UK. Although the more specialist items might sell in small numbers anyway (e.g sheet film or ILFOBROM GALERIE paper etc.)

AgX said:

Well, we should at least distinguish between a camera shop flourishing as such and booming film sales at such shop.

I see a flourishing shop, but with classic films sale flatlining at a level below provitability. But still being offered for principle reasons.

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Within the last 10 years I whitnessed 1x a film being sold in a camera/photo store.

pentaxuser said:

I was there myself last March so about the same time as you. I was surprised how far out "in the sticks " it was. For the U.S. members this is a phrase that indicates "out in the country" so certainly not relying on passing trade and my impression was that its analogue material section was pretty small. Nothing like as impressive as was the case when it was in Warwick itself.

Its good news that its paper sales have increased but my impression was that the digital side i.e. what it calls Permajet is much the bigger and more important. I am on its mailing list and all its invites/special offers are for the Permajet side. Never once have I see anything on analogue stuff

As far as Agulliver and Benjiboy's good experiences are concerned I note that Luton and Leeds have populations of about one quarter and three quarters of a million respectively.

My nearest big town is Northampton with a population of about the same as Luton and it has one camera store I am aware of and for whom film cameras are part of its business and it does sell some darkroom material such as film, developer and fix but overall none of my good news can really be classified as much more than a glimmer really

I even have a mini-lab in my town which at least gets by but the owner does a lot of wedding photography as part of her income and every time I go in it seems to be always the same small stock of a few films. The vast bulk of her business is printing on RA4 from memory cards or e-mailed Jpegs. Tellingly when she decided to print larger than 8x10 she had to install inkjet printing as the cost of the equipment to do larger than 8x10 on RA4 was prohibitive in relation to the potential sales.

So yes there may be a revival in the strict sense of selling more film than was the case a few years ago when we were near rock bottom but it is too soon in my opinion to classify what I have reported here as signs of what constitutes most people's definition of a revival

Like Tom Kershaw I hardly ever see a film camera user. The last one I recall seeing was a young woman taking shots of trains at Grosmont station in 2012 on the North Yorks Moors Railway using a redscale film with which she had a fascination. It was a new sort of experiment for her whichmay or may not have grown into an on-going hobby.

However like Tom I do wonder how sales of trad b&w film( not C41 chromogenic) are doing given that it doesn't seem to be part of the hipster film revival and how few labs now exist that can develop such film Presumably someone in the U.K. other than the few Brits who inhabit Photrio is buying b&w film but I wonder where they all are and wherever they are they seem to be managing without our help

pentaxuser

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It appears that "In the sticks" was first found in a US publication.

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/in-the-sticks.html

mshchem said:

It appears that "In the sticks" was first found in a US publication.

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/in-the-sticks.html

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Pretty common in Atlantic Canada, but can't recall if I've heard it from any locals here in BC yet.

However I imagine the view of what counts as out in the sticks is 'slightly different' between North America and the UK...

Team ADOX said:

The future will even bring a much bigger market for film photography than the current market. The film renaissance is sustainable and long term. It is definitely not a fad.
And because of that all film related companies in the industry are investing in new products and new or modernized production machinery.
And young film shooters have an interest in developing their film at home and darkroom work.
Our colleagues from Fotoimpex see increasing demand in this field as well.



They will not lament because they will never have the reason to lament: Production of new enlarges has never stopped!
Kaiser, Kienzle, Dunco for example are producing new enlargers. Heiland has just designed a new ULF enlarger up to 20x24" negative format.

ADOX - Innovation In Analog Photography.

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Those are pretty bold predictions, but OK. I hope you are right.
APUG is one of if not THE premiere film forum.
How many members have bought a new enlarger.?
More importantly and to your point.....How many of these young people have bought a new enlarger.?
How much do they cost, how many are BH or Adorama selling.?

I am just one guy and do not work in the photo industry. But i have not, really, experienced some of the things you are prophesying.
Like i say, i hope you are right.

My local college has a (beginner) film class.....15-20 students per class.
I have taken it twice in the last two years. It is 95% "young people".
I talk to them for 3 months. None of them expressed much interest in having a darkroom and at end of class, they were wanting to sell their remaining Film/Paper.
As i say, this is just anecdotal, but it has been consistent IME.

Darkrooms are expensive, and today they’re a luxury rather than a necessity for sharing pictures.

Young people in big cities can’t afford a studio flat, never mind a house with space for a darkroom. And photographers in big cities disproportionally account for the film revival, because trends start in big cities. You see the problem.

I think plenty of new film shooters would like a darkroom, especially the ones shooting black and white. But a darkroom is a pipe dream for most of them. They may as well wish for a unicorn or a job for life.

Samuel Dilworth said:

Young people in big cities can’t afford a studio flat, never mind a house with space for a darkroom.

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A temporary darkroom installed in a bathroom was common and still is an option,.
You even can install a professional darkroom in a closet.

Enlarger on the toilet, trays in the bathtub. If you have only a shower, I don't know what to say!

I know of darkrooms fitted in the space under a staircase

But any sort of darkroom has a higher barrier to entry than shooting a roll of film in your mum’s old Pentax.

It’s easy and cheap to give film a try. It’s hard and expensive to start wet printing at home.

And for what? It’s all getting scanned for online sharing anyway. Scan the film or scan the print, it looks “analogue” either way.

Plus, the Ilford survey showed many reasons for shooting film that don’t involve a darkroom.

If a broader darkroom revival happens, I think it might happen down the line when (a) there’s a general backlash against over-sharing, expressed as a shift toward handmade prints and artists’ books and (b) the current new film shooters gain more disposable income and start moving out of the city … if that ever happen as it happened to their parents, because the times they are a-changin’.

It strikes me as churlish to complain that kids aren’t building enough darkrooms when they’ve just saved film.

Samuel Dilworth said:

It strikes me as churlish to complain that kids aren’t building enough darkrooms when they’ve just saved film.

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To me it just makes no sense.

(I am around with photo students each weak.)

Luckless said:

Pretty common in Atlantic Canada, but can't recall if I've heard it from any locals here in BC yet.

However I imagine the view of what counts as out in the sticks is 'slightly different' between North America and the UK...

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Come to my neck of the woods and see how far we are out in the sticks, (on the periphery of Europe) Infact on a clear day I can see, across the Atlantic, Saint John's of Newfoundland and Labrador .............................

CMoore said:

Those are pretty bold predictions, but OK. I hope you are right.

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This is not bold at all. We have the market data, we have the sales numbers, we have done and are doing permanently market research. We have to master the challenges of the significant increasing demand on a daily basis.
Same is valid for all other film manufacturers.
And we "put our money where our mouth is": Since its start as a daughter company of Fotoimpex we are investing in new production facilities and new products. Really big investments for a very small "start-up" company like ours. For example we have bought and modernized one coating line of the former Ilford Imaging factory in Switzerland. And we are currently in addition about doubling our factory space in our headquarter in Bad Saarow, Germany. We have built a second new modern factory building next to our first one.
We do this because of the very positive market outlook concerning demand.

And it's not different if you look at the other film manufacturers: All have invested in reintroduced / additional / new products. Kodak, Ilford, Fujifilm, Foma. All are active in this regard.
For example why has Kodak invested much more than a million $ in the new Ektachrome? Because the demand is there. It has been even higher than anticipated. Our colleagues from Fotoimpex see the orders for Ektachrome every day, and they are really very good.
And a permanent problem for quite some time now is that demand is surpassing supply (converting capacities) with certain color films. Fotoimpex and the other distributors are not getting enough of these films. Kodak and Fujifilm have problems to produce the needed volumes the market demands. Therefore new investments in increased film converting capacities.

CMoore said:

APUG is one of if not THE premiere film forum.

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We should be realistic and broaden our point of view: Photrio (apug) belongs meanwhile to the smaller film photography online communities with its about 88,000 members. The online-world has changed fundamentally in the last decade.
On instagram there are more than a million film photographers active.
For example model / celebrity Gigi Hadid loves to use single-use film cameras. She has an instagram page only for these SUC film photos: And there are more than 176,000 people following this single page. About double the amount of Photrio members. There are several other (enthusiast) film photographers with more followers than Photrio members.
Even some of the film labs have more followers there (like The Darkroom, RPL, Indie). Kodak, Ilford, Polaroid, Lomography all have also much more followers there.

On facebook and youtube there are several hundred thousands film photographers active. For example the Vietnamese facebook film photographer group "FILM PHOTO CLUB" has alone more than 130,000 members. On youtube there is a Vietnamese photography channel with almost 150,000 subscribers, which on a monthly basis publish film photography videos, too.
In total there are meanwhile more than 100 different film photo youtube channels. And the biggest of them have more subscribers than Photrio.

ADOX - Innovation In Analog Photography.

Samuel Dilworth said:

It strikes me as churlish to complain that kids aren’t building enough darkrooms when they’ve just saved film.

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I am not Complaining about it.
I am simply relating the facts that i have observed.

Luckless said:

.

However I imagine the view of what counts as out in the sticks is 'slightly different' between North America and the UK...

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Yes I think you are right. In our sticks we are never very far away from other residences and don't have those silvery dogs with grey/blue eyes that don't bark.

pentaxuser

Photrio membership isn't really indicative of the wordwide users of film. People who come here are either already serious enthusiasts (if not professionals), or come here seeking answers to a specific set of questions. The "kids" who are out there discovering film aren't generally coming here...they're posting their photos on Instagram, Facebook, or even the Lomography galleries. The young people I see out and about shooting film and buying film (and film paraphernalia) probably aren't coming here.

As someone already said...88,000 Photrio members of which only a small proportion are very active....176,000 people following one celebrity who shoots single use film cameras on Instagram.

A few observations...

Film Ferrania noted some years ago that the film market seemed to have bottomed out, stabilised and begun to grow slowly.
Today Adox, Film Ferrania, Kodak, FujiFilm are all investing to increase production - albeit on different scales - because they see sustained and sustainable growth in the film market. Ilford recently brought finishing of 135 film in house with the purchase of Agfa's machinery.

Clearly the big and little guys in the film business are all convinced of an ongoing resurgence. Nope, it's not 1995 where gazillions of rolls of film will be sold every day. But we already know from Henning that there are "double digit million" backlogs for some films. That's still some serious sales.

Agulliver said:

The young people I see out and about shooting film and buying film (and film paraphernalia) probably aren't coming here.

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But I do not see them in real life either. And I am around at major photo stores and I mingle with photo students.

As Fotoimpex is not only an online distributor, but also has a "brick-and-mortar" store in the center of Berlin, our colleagues from Fotoimpex in the store are seeing every day how young or old the Fotoimpex customers are.
The result is very clear: The big majority are younger film photographers. Younger than 35 years.
Meanwhile even teenagers are visiting the store and buying film, developement starter kits etc. The number is increasing
(about a decade ago it was very rare that such young photographers visited the store).

And when we talk to other stores and distributors, and to other manufacturers, they are reporting the same trend: Increasing number of young(er) film shooters.
In the industry there is no discussion at all about the fact that the younger generation is a major force in the film revival. There is more than enough proven data confirming it.

ADOX - Innovation In Analog Photography.

For us older guys, using film is a response to the digital reformation, or more rarely, something analogue fundamentalists never gave up on. For younger people, film is cool. There's no serious rationale, technical differences are background noise to the bigger story that film cameras and their users are "better". From a marketing perspective, the latter are where the profit is. They are less discriminating (one YouTube site shows the effects of massively underexposed negatives to general applause), and ultimately they'll live longer. When wonky is the new perfect, there is no ceiling on the market curve.

blockend said:

. They are less discriminating (one YouTube site shows the effects of massively underexposed negatives to general applause), and ultimately they'll live longer. When wonky is the new perfect, there is no ceiling on the market curve.

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If I have understood all the sentiments in your post correctly then my impression and feelings are pretty much the same. My long term worry but not one that may affect my access to film given my limited life left, is whether wonky will remain their new perfect for long enough to sustain film in the long term.

Is it a passing fashion only? It has certainly been a while since I saw any young teddy boys

pentaxuser

pentaxuser said:

whether wonky will remain their new perfect for long enough to sustain film in the long term.

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I hope that people remember film and darkroom work does not have to equal "wonky" results.

blockend said:

For younger people, film is cool. There's no serious rationale, technical differences are background noise to the bigger story that film cameras and their users are "better". From a marketing perspective, the latter are where the profit is. They are less discriminating (one YouTube site shows the effects of massively underexposed negatives to general applause), and ultimately they'll live longer. When wonky is the new perfect, there is no ceiling on the market curve.

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What we have learned over all the years of contact with our ADOX and Fotoimpex customers is that generalizations make no sense and give a wrong picture.
Film photographers - including all the younger ones - are individuals. All have their own, personal and individual reasons to shoot film. Different reasons.
If you ask 100 film photographers why they use film, you will get dozens of different answers.

We have lots of young customers who are very passionate about film photography. They want to learn and invest in it. They are also not using only 35mm, but also medium and some even large format.
Their spirit is right and very encouraging.
No, the film revival is not a short trend. It is sustainable. That is why the whole industry is investing in new production capacities and new products.

ADOX - Innovation In Analog Photography.

Samuel Dilworth said:

If a broader darkroom revival happens, I think it might happen down the line when (a) there’s a general backlash against over-sharing, expressed as a shift toward handmade prints and artists’ books and (b) the current new film shooters gain more disposable income and start moving out of the city … if that ever happen as it happened to their parents, because the times they are a-changin’..

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I have a dream of inner-city community darkrooms perhaps with studio and exhibit space and a 2nd hand camera store and a cafe. Could be a nice gateway into darkroom work...

perkeleellinen said:

I have a dream of inner-city community darkrooms perhaps with studio and exhibit space and a 2nd hand camera store and a cafe. Could be a nice gateway into darkroom work...

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That is a nice Goal/Dream.
Good Luck

perkeleellinen said:

I have a dream of inner-city community darkrooms perhaps with studio and exhibit space and a 2nd hand camera store and a cafe. Could be a nice gateway into darkroom work...

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First activities in that direction are starting:

In Vietnam lots of the current photo labs have started some years ago as film cafes. About a year ago a public darkroom opened in Hanoi.
In Seoul Filmlog lab is going more in that direction recently, too.
https://filmlog.co.kr
Just some quick examples. There is more in this area worldwide (e.g. in Thailand there are also film cafes with darkroom and education).

ADOX - Innovation In Analog Photography.