my first tray developing!! advice needed!

Hi i am going to tray develop some tmax 100 5x4 in adonal shot at box speed. Any tips?

My trays are 10x8 inches so was thinking of 400ml with 4ml adonal.

Can i develop 2 sheets at once? Any advice on timings and agitation would be helpful. Thanks Paul

I mix my developers strong when tray developing as I want the times to be as short as practical, somewhere in the range of 4-6 minutes, not longer as I don't want to stand in total darkness for too long a time. I use continuous agitation and develop one sheet at a time in 5x7 trays. Good luck!

you can develop many sheets at once maybe even ten, by the "stack of cards" method, repeatedly pulling the bottom one out and gently placing it on top, pushing the whole stack down into the dev... it seems like you'd scratch them, but slow methodical work will prevent that. Your fingers will raise the temp of the developer over time, but dont let that over worry you, cut the time a little. There's also a slosher technique where you use larger trays and have a smaller tray with holes for fluid drainage and built in separators that gets moved between the chemistries..., a handmade good 4x5 or 5x4 negative is awesome to behold!

While others may have had good experience tray developing multiple sheets at once without scratches, I've seen them all too frequently, so I'd rather do them one at a time. Obviously, good technique is critical, especially avoiding rubbing the corner of one sheet against the surface of another. I've even seen slight scratches in the non-emulsion side of the film from this.

~Joe

400 ml in an 8x10 tray sounds like it could be a little sparse. You need enough liquid that the film isn't dragging along the bottom of the tray. 500 or 600 might be a little better.
Doing 2 at once shouldn't be a problem though, once you're comfortable with the process you can go up from there.
Continuous agitation is good for starters. Gently lifting the tray and lowering it is the usual technique. I usually alternate lifting from the sides and one end, and sometimes lift at the corners.
You want the developer moving, but not splashing over the sides.

Joe VanCleave said:

While others may have had good experience tray developing multiple sheets at once without scratches, I've seen them all too frequently, so I'd rather do them one at a time.

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Same here, although a slosher would help to reduce the risk of scratches. For small sheets such as 5x4, I have a choice of a Paterson Orbital, Jobo tank, or a Combiplan tank set up for dip'n'dunk. None of these are viable for 10x12, so these have to be done in a tray - One at a time and make sure there are no rough spots in the bottom of the trays.

dasBlute said:

you can develop many sheets at once maybe even ten, by the "stack of cards" method, repeatedly pulling the bottom one out and gently placing it on top, pushing the whole stack down into the dev... it seems like you'd scratch them, .....

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I always ended up scratching them which is why I tank develop in hangers......You might try one sheet at a time to start and then work your way up from there.

Hi 10speeduk,

I develop in trays and have a few tips. I use 5x7 inch trays with about 16 ounces of developer in them. So fill the tray near the top.

I use thin gloves and shuffle continuously. I just haven't the patience to count to 10 between shuffles, but I think that would be better.

I develop about 5-6 sheets at a time. From the time the first sheet touches developer to the time the last sheet is hanging on clips, I do not let the film out of my hands.

In other words, to minimize scratches you need to pay attention the whole time. You need to be careful with every sheet lift action.

I pull the bottom sheet up and out of the developer and set it on top of the stack. The trick is to separate the bottom sheet fully before moving it. I get several fingers between the stack and bottom sheet and get developer to flow in... And then pull that sheet out without allowing any of the stack corners to touch it.

Good luck.

don't forget to put the film in 1 at a time, and use a water bath first.
film stuck together ... from putting mroe than 1 sheet in a tray at the same time
is no fun to peel apart.

good luck !
john

404ml in an 8x10 tray is way to little solution to batch process 4x5 film easily! Most people who shuffle in batches of 6 sheets or so in 8x10 trays use a liter of solution. I, like Bill, use deep Paterson 5x7 trays. I use 500ml solution.

If you're just starting out and want to master the shuffle technique of tray developing, practice with scrap sheets in a tray of water with the lights on till you get the hang of it. Then close your eyes and practice for a while longer. Gently pull one sheet from the bottom of the stack by sliding it horizontally till it is clear of the other sheets (I shuffle along the short dimension of the film, but others like the long side; to each his own). Then lay the sheet flat on the surface of the developer on top of the stack and submerge it gently with the balls of your fingers. Be careful not to submerge the film corner first or any other way that could scratch the emulsion of the sheet just below it.

Safety note: I recommend gloves when developing to minimize exposure to the chemicals. Thin blue nitrile gloves are great. I've used vinyl and latex gloves to but nitrile is a better barrier. Gloves are a must if using toxic developers like pyro developers. Also, Metol is known to cause contact dermatitis in many, so gloves are a good idea with MQ developers too. If you don't use gloves (some don't and maybe with Xtol or the like it's not so bad), then be sure to clip your nails and file them blunt before developing so you don't scratch films with them. Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

With 8x10 trays, the challenge is to keep the film corralled in one corner of the tray with your hands while developing so they don't float all around, turn sideways or diagonally, etc. and end up scratching each other. The film is easier to control this way in a 5x7 tray.

I develop emulsion-side-up, and shuffle from bottom to top in a regime that goes once through my stack of films every 30 seconds. The shuffling interval changes with the number of films: 2 sheets - 15-sec. intervals, 3 sheets - 10 sec. intervals, 5 sheets - 6-sec. intervals, 6 sheets - 5-sec. intervals. I can develop up to 8 sheets at a time, but prefer to stick to batches of 6 or fewer.

Presoak is important if you develop in batches. Immerse the films one-at-a-time in the water presoak and agitate for 10 seconds or so before immersing another sheet. Otherwise, they will stick together. If they do stick, be patient and soak them apart (takes some minutes).

When the presoak is done (I like 2 minutes minimum), gather all the films together, lift them out of the water, drain a bit, then fan them in your hand like a hand of cards (takes some practice in the dark, so practice this too with your scrap sheets). I always turn the first sheet to go into the developer 180° so I can keep track of the stack order while I'm shuffling.

Next, start your timer and immerse the films in the developer one-at-a-time in the same interval sequence as you plan to use shuffling. I agitate between immersions by lifting the stack up and down a few times (so only the top film gets the agitation effect). After all films are in the developer, begin your shuffle routine. I turn my sheets 180° with each shuffle to avoid uneven development. Also, immerse each sheet gently into the developer

When development is done, lift the films out of the developer, fan them as before and immerse them in the stop bath in the same order and at the same interval that you used putting them into the developer. This ensures the exact same developing time for all sheets, but you need to keep track of sheet one and make sure the film goes into the stop in the same order as into the developer (if you lose track, no big deal, it's just a few seconds difference anyway; I'm just extra precise).

Agitate in the stop by shuffling as before. The intervals are no longer so important, so handle the film carefully. After the stop time is up, you can pick up the whole stack, drain it, and transfer it to the fix as a unit. Shuffle in the fix until at least half the fixing time is up before turning on the room lights.

Finish up the fix and then wash however you do. I have slotted film washers. Tray washing works too, but is time-consuming because you have to shuffle constantly.

Hope this helps get you started.

Doremus

While I have tray developed a few times, I would rather use hangers even though it would use more developer. I prefer a tank, almost any tank although the Jobo sheet film tank is the most efficient in my opinion.

Working in complete darkness is pita. If you had IR goggles, maybe OK.

IR viewers are not that expensive. They do make sheet film developing easier.

fotch said:

While I have tray developed a few times, I would rather use hangers even though it would use more developer. I prefer a tank, almost any tank although the Jobo sheet film tank is the most efficient in my opinion.

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If you use developer in a replenishment regime, the quantity required for the tank ceases being a problem.

I am not a fan of tray development for myself. Other do it successfully, I found that is worked ok but I was not happy with the tray method. Be careful of film sheets sticking together or getting scratched.

I would like to comment a little on Doremus Scudder's post, since I have consistently found him to be one of the most knowledgeable advice-givers on these forums. In that context, I have a couple of variations I use personally, which are in slight contrast to his advice.

First, I prefer 8x10 trays for my 4x5 film, because using 5x7 trays didn't leave enough room when the negative was rotated horizontally (i.e. a 5" long negative in a slightly over 5" wide tray is a tight fit). For me, using the 5x7 trays resulted in added edge density because of increased developer activity from surging at the edges. I switched to using 8x10 trays, and am happier. As Doremus suggests, in an 8x10 tray I use one liter of working strength developer (in my case, typically either PMK or Pyrocat-HD). I shuffle the negatives for 2 minutes, then rotate them 90 degrees, shuffle for another 2 minutes, rotate another 90 degrees, and continue in that manner. The idea is to periodically rotate the negatives in the developer to avoid the possibility of surge patterns from doing all of the shuffling in exactly the same orientation.

Secondly, whether to shuffle face up or face down is a subject of both debate and personal preference. I started emulsion-side up, had too many scratches, and switched to emulsion-side down, which I have used ever since. In theory, with emulsion side down, any scratches you make are to the back of the negative, not the emulsion. But as I said, this is one detail where many will agree to disagree.

Lastly, to assist in "corralling" the negatives in the lower right hand corner, I use a length of wood, probably something like a 1x2, under the trays so that they are tilted forwards; that way gravity keeps the negatives toward the bottom end of the tray, and I use my hands to keep the negatives over to the right-hand side.

palewin said:

I would like to comment a little on Doremus Scudder's post, since I have consistently found him to be one of the most knowledgeable advice-givers on these forums. In that context, I have a couple of variations I use personally, which are in slight contrast to his advice.

First, I prefer 8x10 trays for my 4x5 film, because using 5x7 trays didn't leave enough room when the negative was rotated horizontally (i.e. a 5" long negative in a slightly over 5" wide tray is a tight fit). For me, using the 5x7 trays resulted in added edge density because of increased developer activity from surging at the edges. I switched to using 8x10 trays, and am happier. As Doremus suggests, in an 8x10 tray I use one liter of working strength developer (in my case, typically either PMK or Pyrocat-HD). I shuffle the negatives for 2 minutes, then rotate them 90 degrees, shuffle for another 2 minutes, rotate another 90 degrees, and continue in that manner. The idea is to periodically rotate the negatives in the developer to avoid the possibility of surge patterns from doing all of the shuffling in exactly the same orientation.

Secondly, whether to shuffle face up or face down is a subject of both debate and personal preference. I started emulsion-side up, had too many scratches, and switched to emulsion-side down, which I have used ever since. In theory, with emulsion side down, any scratches you make are to the back of the negative, not the emulsion. But as I said, this is one detail where many will agree to disagree.

Lastly, to assist in "corralling" the negatives in the lower right hand corner, I use a length of wood, probably something like a 1x2, under the trays so that they are tilted forwards; that way gravity keeps the negatives toward the bottom end of the tray, and I use my hands to keep the negatives over to the right-hand side.

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Pete,

Thanks for the compliment!

Your comments and technique are certainly not contrary to mine, just different. I have had the increased edge density you mention in 5x7 trays, and solved the problem by simply not pressing the negatives so quickly into the developer. I don't use 8x10 trays because I just don't have the room in one of my locations.

I turn my negatives 180° with each shuffle to avoid surge patterns, thereby avoiding having to shuffle along the long dimension in a 5x7 tray. It works well for me. Your scheme is likely more ideal.

Great tip about propping up one side of the tray to help keep the negatives together on one end. I'll definitely do this if I ever switch to 8x10 trays.

As for emulsion up or down... emulsion down is certainly better as far as avoiding scratches from shuffling. However, when I tried it, I got surge patterns from the ridges/grooves on the bottom of my developing tray (Paterson). I went back to emulsion-side-up and am just careful when agitating. I haven't scratched a negative in years now.

Take away here is that developing, especially tray developing, is highly personal and there are a lot of ways to do it well. We're giving the OP lots of options to choose from. I'm sure he'll be an expert tray developer soon.

Best,

Doremus

great advice Doremus ...

regarding sheets stuck together ...
i have waited a long time ( more than 2 or 4 minutes ) and
they didn't just fall apart .. it takes a little effort .. finding and edge, bending it a teeny bit
and slowly peeling the stuck sheets and allowing the water to unbind the sheets ..
i tend to count my sheets in the water bath and in the developer to make sure i have all of them
and once in a while i miscount so i notice stuck films in the developer ... which means
time spent trying to unglue them changes the amount of time sheets are being developed, AND if
sheets are in the tray unstuck floating around, as i am trying to unstick their cousins there is a chance of
a corner of the stuck sheets scratching the emulsion of the sheets below.

luckily caffenol isn't a very active developer, even with a little dektol or whatever in there, so me monkeying around
ungluing sheets doens't amount to much extra time .. but it is still a big pain in the neck...

as with everything ... ymmv