My first reverse processing - what went wrong??

eSPhotos · Mar 18, 2011

This was my first reverse processing b&w film but have no idea what are those 'flying rocks' and how and why did it happen.

Film used was a cheap Lucky exposed at EI 100.
I used a homebrew paper developer with 8g/L of Sodium thiosulfate.
Bleach, I mixed 2g of Potaswsium permanganate in 500ml of water and 20ml Of 34% Sulpheric Acid in 500ml of water. Mixed 1+1 before use.
Clearing Bath is Sodium sulfite solution.

My work flow was as follows:

All at 20 deg C.
1st developer 12 min (1+1)
Rince with water
Bleach 3 min
Rince with water
Clearing Bath 2 min
Rince with water
Expose to light 3 min in front of 100 watt bulb
2nd developer 7 min (re-used first)
Rince with water
Fix
Wash
Dry

Thanks

vencahaus · Mar 18, 2011

Hi,
how did you exactly re-expose? You should have kept the film in water with continous movement while exposing to light. If you didn't, drops of water might make the exposure eneven.
That's my tip.

I'd switch to other films after you make your process more stable. Some of th erollei films are great and cheep (in bulks).

Good luck next time. It's wonderful process.

eSPhotos · Mar 18, 2011

Bingo! water drops ...
Yeah, I took out the reel to re-expose ...
Thanks heaps.

holmburgers · Mar 18, 2011

Interesting, that's something I never considered. You may have just prevented this from happening to another first-timer!

Nicholas Lindan · Mar 18, 2011

Water drops it is. The re-exposure should be carried out to 'completion' - you can't over do it - the film should be way overexposed at this step.

I turn the lights on / open the tank at the bleach step. You can inspect in the second developer to make sure the slides look OK and have a uniform reversal. If they are uneven you can extend the second developer - like the re-exposure, second developer is done to completion.

I've never put thiosulfate in the second developer on the reasoning that it may 'fix away' highlight detail. I'm divided on the subject of a final fix - it shouldn't be needed as all the silver halide has been developed in the second developer.

Ian Grant · Mar 18, 2011

You can over do the re-exposure, this is why it should not be done in sunlight. It's not an issue with tungsten light where 2 or 3 times the recommendation is OK , but solarisation can occur with sunlight or very intense re-exposure for too long.

Fixer's needed after the 2nd development to ensure full removal of silver complexes formed in the reversal process and remove any silver halides undeveloped in the 2nd developer, it also helps remove residual developer by-products. It's more important for long term image permanence.

Ian

bblhed · Mar 18, 2011

My vote is for water droplets as well.

I would like to say that other than the water drops, you did an excellent job on this and should be proud if not of the final product, but at least the quality of chemical process.

Also a huge thank you for posting the Battery Acid mix formula that you used, this is a nice verification that Battery Acid will in fact work quite well for making bleach.

Now go shoot another roll and do the whole thing over again, your results should be exceptional now that you know the trick.

Ian Grant · Mar 18, 2011

I doubt this is water during re-exposure, those look like chemical trails from each dark spot and each has a chemical halo, I think the problem lies elsewhere. May be a bleach issue with the Permanganate solution going off, maybe not being cleared properly.

Ian

Ian Grant · Mar 18, 2011

After more thought, there's no way that's caused by water droplets, it was normal to remove a film from some spirals for re-exposure and the film would have water droplets.

It's just not possible to get increased density by exposure through a water droplet when it's a fogging exposure and development to completion.

That's a chemical issue, as I said almost certainly with the bleach.

Ian

Gerald C Koch · Mar 18, 2011

Water droplets are not going to have any effect. As previously pointed out the re-exposure goes to completion. I did Ektachrome slides for many years and always removed the reel from the bath for the re-exposure. Never had any problems.

holmburgers · Mar 18, 2011

The plot thickens...

vencahaus · Mar 18, 2011

I too am not sure, it was just an idea. But I still vote for problem in some step after bleaching.

I tried Lucky once and don't remember correctly whether or not a halid solvent in first developer was needed. If I remember it was very dark slide. So maybe the dark spots we see are the only places processed to completion...

anyway, there are few good advices:
keep stirring the tank in all the steps
dont rush the rinse... 2 min at least.... and especially after the first developer...5 min is ok
re-expose from both sides of the reel, rinse a bit every 15 sec
don't skip the clear bath...it's good for the re-exposure

eSPhotos · Mar 18, 2011

Thanks all,
I initially thought the bleach was the culprit but then water drops sounded very convincing. Now I am very confusing ...

Permanganate used was pure (1g/g) and the sulphuric acid was 560g/L concentration with 1.27 specific gravity @ 25C - Wiki tells me it is 33-34% concentration.
I mixed the bleach just before use so it wasn't stale.
However, I do not remember if I agitated continuously at bleaching stage. I guess that gets a vote too.
I saved the first developer and used for the second. So, both contained S thiosulfate.

I read somewhere that Sodium metabisulfite can be substituded for sulphuric acid. Could someone confirm this?

I may do another test using FP4+ with better control of the process.

Existing Light · Mar 18, 2011

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

The link I provided is a pretty good discussion about reversal processing. It includes my process (among others), which is a conglomeration of suggestions and tips I found on the internet.

I've only had the problem you're having once. I acidently dumped my first developer (which I use as the second developer as well) in my waste chemical bucket and had to mix up more in the middle of the process. I got all the way to the clear bath step before I realized what I did. When the clear bath step was finished, I rinsed my film with distilled water then filled the tank with distilled water while I mixed another batch of developer (Dektol 1:2, no sodium thiosulfate). The water was about 20C when I poured it in the tank, but it may have drifted a few degrees while I got the new developer to 20C. I just assumed all this time that when i poured the water out, the droplets that were left were at a different temp than the developer and contributed to the uneven development. Maybe it was a chemical contamination thing since I dont do extensive washes between each step (usually a tank or two full of water with 30-45 seconds of constant agitation at the most.). That was the only roll i had a problem with so far, and it was less severe than what you posted, just a few splotches along the whole roll. Our problems may be unrelated

DarkroomExperimente · Mar 18, 2011

you used permanganate bleach and sodium sulfite to clear?

every time I tried it the emulsion was DESTROYED by bubbles... after pouring out the sulfite bath a ton of dark goop came out and after that there wasn't anything left on the film...I always thought you had to use sodium BIsulfite ( or something ) with a permanganate bleach

sodium sulfite was great when I used a dichromate bleach....but it caused disaster with a permanganate bleach...surprised/happy you got better results

eSPhotos · Mar 18, 2011

Thanks for the link EL. I think I read this when I was about to start but did not get much then but now I can follow what people are talking about. Great info.

Cheers DE, I note that too reading the thread that EL posted. I will mix again with metabisulfite.

Hopefully I am zooming into a satisfactory result.

Existing Light · Mar 18, 2011

Hope you have better luck next time, eSPhotos. It took me a few rolls to get the process down right. I've only used FP4+ and a few rolls of Arista.edu 200. Both used the exact same process and came out good. I did notice the Arista.edu had pinholes; I dont know if that was the bleach and clear steps wreaking havoc on the emulsion or if it was a manufacturing problem. I do think I remember a thread here about the manufacturer of Arista.edu film not having adequate QC, so that could be the problem there (I dont want to be the source of false rumors, so take that with a grain of salt).

I've yet to try any other films other than FP4 and Arista.edu, so I dont know if I'm working with a 'universal process' that will work with all films or just some neato fluke in which the two films I tried worked well in the same process.

If you're really interested in this process, keep working at it and you'll figure out a process that works well. You might also try that Harman direct positive paper to make prints. I havent used it yet because it's expensive, and theres a 6-8 week wait if I order fromFreestyle (almost the only online retail photo store I use), because I'm assuming they dont have a stock of it at their location and have to order it direct from Harman.

eSPhotos · Mar 19, 2011

Thanks EL, I will try FP4+ and will follow your process closely.

Since I can 'open develop' from the completion of bleaching I will closely monitor the blotches - hopefully they won't show up but on the other hand I want to know what caused these so it won't happen to me any more.

vencahaus · Mar 19, 2011

eSPhotos, you'd rather switch to other film now, since the process is not universal to all films and after you realize that your process is fine but results sucks because of the film, you will have hard time doing all the things again on a new type of film

don't take the word "completion" literally... none of the steps in reversal process is to be done "to completion", we'd better say "enough"
too much bleaching is not good for re-exposure, too much clearing is not good for second developer, too much re-exposure may cause the film to print-out... even too much first developer is not good...

don't use developer with halide solvent as a second developer, you loose deep blacks in shadows

agitate continuously i all steps, it prevents stains and it shortens the time the film is all those baths and so prevents potential damage of emulsion

eSPhotos · Mar 19, 2011

Cheers vencahaus,
I take you advice but for the film I have to use FP4+ because that is my all purpose film.
I know it's all over again but I haven't progressed any so no loss really.

I have done a bit more reading so next one will have better process control.

holmburgers · Mar 19, 2011

DarkroomExperimente said:
...I always thought you had to use sodium BIsulfite ( or something ) with a permanganate bleach

+1.

I should've caught this as I was told the same thing once in a thread I started entitled "Check My Reversal Processing Chem List"[sic]

My first reverse processing - what went wrong??

eSPhotos

Attachments

vencahaus

eSPhotos

holmburgers

Nicholas Lindan

Advertiser

Ian Grant

bblhed

Ian Grant

Ian Grant

Gerald C Koch

holmburgers

vencahaus

eSPhotos

Existing Light

DarkroomExperimente

eSPhotos

Existing Light

eSPhotos

vencahaus

eSPhotos

holmburgers

My first reverse processing - what went wrong??

Attachments

Advertiser

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency