My First Results with Ektascan B R/A in Rodinal

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MattKrull

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I’ve had LF GAS for a while now. Ever since I compared my first 645 enlargements to 35mm enlargements I’ve wanted to try a really big negative. Due to space constraints, I don’t have space for a 4x5 enlarger, so I figured a 5x7 or 8x10 (and sticking to contact printing) was the way for me. Earlier this year I had a string of good fortune that started with finding a Kodak 2D in good condition locally, a friend convincing my wife she should let me buy it because it would make awesome decoration in our living room, and a Apugger selling me 12” Commercial Ektar (I put out a call for a user lens, and Tony D offers me my dream lens).

Since I can’t afford to buy both groceries and 8x10 film, my plan was to use paper negatives. Unfortunately, ISO 6 and speed-light based portrait photography are not a good mix. And so I very quickly landed on X-ray film (as a number of Apuggers suggested I would). I decided to use the slightly more expensive Ektascan B R/A single sided x-ray film to avoid the softness and scratching that come with double sided films. Unfortunately, Ektascan is not currently available in Canada that I can find, and the only place that would ship from the US only does UPS shipping. So I paid half again the cost of the film in UPS brokerage charges.

Alright, my life story finished, what was the result of my first try? Mixed.

First, here’s the photo:
attachment.php

http://mattkrull.tumblr.com/post/133366553337/please-ignore-the-massive-amount-of-dust-on-this

My thoughts: (If you don’t deal with digital at all, skip the first two points)

1 – This scan sucks. My contact (plexi)glass is a magnet for dust (and now scratches, my blower brush scratched it – wtf?), as is the plastic sleeve the negative is in. So, lots and lots of dust. The scan was done at 600DPI (enough to print this at 20”x16” on a good quality inkjet). I did a 1200 DPI scan, and while it did show more detail, it also made the dust more visible, ate up way more disk space, and didn’t really do anything for the way the image looked on the screen.

2 – Resolution: Continuing the thought above, the 600DPI scan translates into a 28MP image, which in the world of 36 and now 50MP DSLRs, doesn’t sound so impressive. But those sensors are bayer-array and so the comparison isn’t really perfect. What I can say is that comparing the fine detail in this 600DPI scans to some RAW files I have from a Nikon D800 (36MP) the fine detail is pretty similar. So, the detail in an 8x10 contact print from a camera built in 1922, using a lens from the 1940s (maybe 50s, I haven’t checked the serial number on it) at the lowest scan resolution is comparable to the best DSLR technology of 2014. That’s pretty darned cool to me.

Digital talk over, True Appugers™ can now begin reading again
3 – Fine Detail: Okay, so I mentioned the resolution in that image, but what do those meaningless numbers translate to? This:
attachment.php

http://mattkrull.tumblr.com/post/133377744457/heres-a-100-crop-of-the-scan-i-posted-earlier

This is a 100% crop from my scan. If you come from 35mm, remember this is not a macro shot, but an upper body portrait including everything from just above his belly button to the top of his head. You can clearly make out the stitching in his shirt, and if you look closely you can see the weave of the fabric itself. If I increase the scan resolution you can clearly make out the weave.

4 – Depth of field: shot at F8, the depth of field is minuscule. Looking at the above picture you can see that his pocket is in focus but the button behind it (how far does a pocket on a lose shirt stick out? less than 2cm I’d wager) is out of focus. Coming from doing macro work in 35mm I’m impressed with how the focus falls off. With 35mm and a macro lens focus just sort of falls off a cliff, here it melts away smoothly. This is perhaps my favourite aspect of this photo. The down side is that I think I’ll need to shoot portraits at F16 or higher, and that’s right at the ragged edge of what my lighting setup can do.

5 – Grain: Ektascan is a tabular grain film, just like TMax and Delta. Simply put, even at a four times enlargement there is no grain visible what so ever. Anything you see in the images above that you think might be grain is actually dust (dust on the negative, the plexiglas, or the scanner bed – there’s lots of places for dust to get into the process).

6 – Real detail: For all the magnification and such, the fact is, in an 8x10 print, there is no more visible detail here than in an enlargement from my Bronica 645 (using Delta). After my step up from 35mm to 645, I expected to be able to see more detail, but the truth is, the print is now out resolving my eye and all the super duper resolution mentioned in point 2 and 3 are pretty meaningless. That was a big let down.

7 – Tone smoothness: Going along with point 6, yes, when you zoom in the tones are super smooth, but holding the print in your hand, you’d be hard pressed to tell the difference between this and 645 (not counting DoF). I now wonder about everyone who says they can notice a difference in tones between 645 and 6x6.

8 – Skin tones: Ektascan is orthochromatic, which as I understand it, means it is sensitive to both blue and green, but not red light. While the green sensitivity may make it more forgiving to skin tones than blue light only film, it is still harsh on the subject. Bags under the eyes are amplified, blemishes in the skin are exaggerated, and skin is darker over all. I also find that skin (in particular lips) take on a metallic finish that reminds me of a bronze statue. It takes some work in the dark room to get the skin tones looking normal-ish.

As a real apples-to-apples skin tone comparison, look at the second image in this post: (there was a url link here which no longer exists) It was shot moments after the 8x10 camera using RPX 25 135 (also developed in Rodinal). Exact same light setup, same model (same level of tiredness). The skin tones are bright; the bags under his eyes are barely visible.
I will need to be very selective on who I use this film with. Some people will like the look, but people who are sensitive about their looks will not like it at all.

9 – Printing: I made four photos and processed them in two different ways (Rodinal 1:100 and 1:200, details below). The 1:100 negatives are a full grade higher in contrast, and to print them the way I wanted took using Grade 0. That doesn’t leave a lot of room to decrease contrast if I need to. Also, I printed these on Oriental VC RC paper, and I think that is really holding the prints back. Despite all the good things I’ve read about the paper, I find it lifeless and dull. I think these would look noticeably better on different paper. This definitely added disappointment to the final result.

My Process:
I exposed the film at ISO 50 (I treated it as ISO100 and then added bellows factor of 1.7, rounded up to 2, after focusing). I developed two sheets in Rodinal 1:100 (4ml : 400ml) in a 11x14 Unicolor print drum on a reversing unicolor base at 20C for 6 minutes. The other two sheets were done at 1:200 (2ml : 400ml) for 8 minutes. The 1:200 negatives look ever so slightly thinner to me, but I found they took the same amount of time under the enlarger light to reach optimal results, but as mentioned before, I could use a Grade 1 filter. I also found the skin tones to be subtly nicer (it’s hard to tell which is which when the prints are side by side though). Nice thing about the film being orthochromatic, I could load the film holders and print drum under safe-light. I’m sure it gets easier with practice, but that was more difficult than I expected.
 

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StephenT

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MANY thanks for the post. I ordered a box of the Ektascan myself this afternoon and you have moved me quite a way along the learning curve.

I decided on the Ektascan so I wouldn't have to worry about scratches on the double sided emulsion.

I'll be using Unicolor developing tanks. I have Beseler as well, but I like the Unicolor ridges.

Are you going to try Rodinal 1:150?

Are you going to try a filter in front of the lens?

Did you have to trim the film or did it fit fine in your 8x10 holders?
 

OptiKen

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You've inspired me
 
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MattKrull

MattKrull

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MANY thanks for the post. I ordered a box of the Ektascan myself this afternoon and you have moved me quite a way along the learning curve. I decided on the Ektascan so I wouldn't have to worry about scratches on the double sided emulsion. I'll be using Unicolor developing tanks. I have Beseler as well, but I like the Unicolor ridges.Are you going to try Rodinal 1:150? Are you going to try a filter in front of the lens? Did you have to trim the film or did it fit fine in your 8x10 holders?
Hi Stephen,
I'm glad I could help :smile:
I doubt I'll try Rodinal 1:150, but I may go the other way and see just how dillute I can go. For 135 and 120 film, I usually shoot box speed and process by the recommended times. This is pretty good for giving me consistent results where I rarely print outside of grades 1 1/2 - 3. In fact, I've never used lower than Grade 1 until this experiment. So if Ican get the negative to be a bit less contrasty and at bit closer to how I am used to working, I'd like to.

Now that you mention it, I could put a green filter up front and get skin tones that I'm at least used to (I have a green filter, I've used it, though I tend to prefer yellow). I had originally thought Ektascan was blue light sensitive only, so I figured there was no point in filters at all. Now I just need to get a green filter gel. I'm guessing it'll knock a stop off the film speed... I'll need to think about how I'll light that and still use a high aperture number...
Unlike paper, the Ektascan went into my film holders perfectly. No trimming required (which was a nice surprise). Since 'm not used to LF film, I expected the top-right notch to be bigger than it is. Thankfully, since I was loading under safelight (I have a slightly orange safelight, and it didn't cause any fogging, but I tried to keep the film out in it for as short a time as possible) I was able to see which side was emulsion (silver/grey) and which was the back (black).
As I mentioned, loading the unicolor tank the first time was a bit of a struggle (I've never used it before), but it got easier the second time. I think it makes a really good match for the single-sided x-ray paper.

OptiKen, I hope you give it a shot!
 

Ari

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Matt, it's a very good first attempt, and one you can easily build upon.
Have you seen this thread? http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?80011-Images-shot-on-X-ray-film
It's long, but full of great information.

Looking at your photo, I wonder what is the light-toned band that runs along the top and left side? Is that your film holder or some scanner part that got in the way?
Your development and exposure are certainly in the ball park, so keep up the good work.
 
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MattKrull

MattKrull

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Matt, it's a very good first attempt, and one you can easily build upon.Have you seen this thread? http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?80011-Images-shot-on-X-ray-filmIt's long, but full of great information.Looking at your photo, I wonder what is the light-toned band that runs along the top and left side? Is that your film holder or some scanner part that got in the way?Your development and exposure are certainly in the ball park, so keep up the good work.
Hi Ari,
Yes I have seen that thread. Between it and the other one on LFF I have learned a lot. But they are 275 and 115 pages long respectively at this point, and (re)finding anything in them, even with google is very difficult. It's part of the reason I wanted to start this thread. It would make an easier to find start point fo someone.
I was really concerned when I first looked at the negative that the band was a light leak. It's very square edged, so I though I might have light coming in around my lens board.
Nope, nothing so sinister: it is the edge of my black backdrop against my (much lighter) wall. If you look, you can see Rob's hair poking up above it. Just shows I need to pay more attention to the whole of the ground glass (I was so focused on getting my focus right and general placement of Rob that I never even noticed the backdrop).
 

Ari

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I was really concerned when I first looked at the negative that the band was a light leak. It's very square edged, so I though I might have light coming in around my lens board.
Nope, nothing so sinister: it is the edge of my black backdrop against my (much lighter) wall. If you look, you can see Rob's hair poking up above it. Just shows I need to pay more attention to the whole of the ground glass (I was so focused on getting my focus right and general placement of Rob that I never even noticed the backdrop).

That's good news! Carry on, and keep posting here.
 

Alan9940

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Hi Matt,

I've been playing around with Ektascan, too. So far I've developed it in both Pyrocat-HD and Rodinal, but have yet to obtain a neg that I'm totally happy with. The biggest issue I've noticed with Pyrocat-HD, anyway, is that the film speed drops drastically as I reduce development time; and I'm not talking drastic reductions, rather a minute or two less. I've read of others noticing this same anomaly with Pyrocat. I never got far enough along with Rodinal to notice if it has the same issue. My next experiments are going to be with Ilford DD-X (mainly because it's a "speed increasing" formula) and D-23 (this is a soft working formula in case I get too much contrast with DD-X.) I should probably note that I'm processing in an Expert Drum on a Jobo. Sorry, not really any useful information for anyone here, but I thought I'd pass along my findings so far.

Best regards,
AlanH
 

bobbotron

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As the model in this photo, I feel entitled to say the detail is great, but I'm not sure the skin tone is accurate, it looks like I have the beginning of a black eye in that photo! :D

There is a wonderful look to the photo, I can't wait to see more out of the camera!

I am trying to convince Matt to experiment creating positive "slides" from the 8x10 film by contact printing the negative onto another sheet of film. I think it would be really neat to have a positive slide of an 8x10 image, but figuring out exposure for the process is an unclear process.
 

Drew Bedo

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I used to be able to get Ektascan film when I worked in a medical clinic. It was used in Ultra Sound and Nuclear Medicine imaging. I could load a few film holders on Friday, shoot them over the weekend and run the negs through the roller transport proessor on Monday. They came out dry in 90 seconds.

One day I found a photograopher from the hospital's "Medical Media" office running a role of 35mm Tri-X through the processor. Said it worked every time. So I sometimes took my films into a lab and asked for Tri-X processing. I rated the film at ISO 200 and it worked well.

Is this the same Ektascan? Where did you get it and what was the retail (not shipping) cost?
 
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MattKrull

MattKrull

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I used to be able to get Ektascan film when I worked in a medical clinic. It was used in Ultra Sound and Nuclear Medicine imaging. I could load a few film holders on Friday, shoot them over the weekend and run the negs through the roller transport proessor on Monday. They came out dry in 90 seconds.One day I found a photograopher from the hospital's "Medical Media" office running a role of 35mm Tri-X through the processor. Said it worked every time. So I sometimes took my films into a lab and asked for Tri-X processing. I rated the film at ISO 200 and it worked well.Is this the same Ektascan? Where did you get it and what was the retail (not shipping) cost?
That's cool to know, I may try developing a couple of sheets in D76 following the Tri-X times and see what happens.
As for "is it the same"? um, maybe? The full name of the product is "Kodak Carestream Ektascan B R/A" which I purchased from ZZMedical here: Dead Link Removed
I paid slightly less than the current asking price of $80US (but only slightly), and UPS "Brokerage" charges added a lot more to than than I am comfortable with (I'm in Canada, and UPS is really bad about charging us $40 for "brokerage" when no other courier does - but some places, like ZZMedical will ONLY ship UPS).
I've been told that this product is actually made by Agfa, but the Agfa branded version is only available in metric sizes (and I only have standard 8x10 holders).
 

Fr. Mark

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I'm a fan of Ektascan. I've been using it mostly with Pyrocat HD 2:2:100 for new Cyanotypes mainly 5x7. I picked Pyrocat because of its success in hands of Carbon printers, possibility of use with Ag gelatin too (stain is mostly UV opaque) and excellent keeping properties of the chemicals and low cost.

I made Rodinal from scratch and it does suit this film very well but there is a lot of ambiguity/variability in the recipes. I know I can buy Rodinal but I want to mix my chemistry.

I've also contact printing on to Ag emulsions. And want to do carbon printing.

I cut under red safe light to have 4x5 and 5x7. The first cut of 5x7 gives a strip a little bigger than the window on a 35mm camera and one of my favorite photos is of a press camera and other darkroom stuff under daylight balanced lights taken with an OM-1 50mm lens f16, mirror locked up, 1sec self timer so I did not have to find the cable release. The tonal range and detail are astonishing. That exposure and some tech pan and some of my dads slides me make me wonder if I should use use my small cameras more. Or, get medium format cameras.

I am surprised that you see so little difference between LF and small/medium format results. I can't get everything out of a 5x7 negative with a cyanotype but when everything works right the detail a 5x7 negative holds is superior to 35mm for sure. Admittedly It is a lot easier to carry the OM-1 or OlyXA than the 240mm f5.6 let alone the rest of the Sinar P kit and tripod...to me the difference or what makes each appropriate is intended use. The Sinar is hard to beat for things that hold still and you can make come to the camera. It's not a backpacking camera unless you trek with llamas or donkeys. But I digress.

I'm still ironing out issues with my home built 8x10 so I've used ektascan less with 8x10 much less. I have built and adapter for the Sinar shutter so maybe the 8x10 will see more use. I have a few 8x10 hangers and crude tanks but prefer the tray for Ektascan because it is a lot less hassle.

NB Ektascan is also available in 14x17 sheets...which cuts to whole plate very efficiently and which could be used as a source of 11x14 and 5x7 if you shoot both those formats etc.

be aware red safelights are a better idea than others and even red LEDs are not 100% red and if intense enough will fog this film. My bike tail light did fog this film. And printing paper.

Final note for now: perhaps the best thing about Ektascan after the single sidedness is the anti-halation backing. It greatly improved the look of some high contrast bright light source shots and probably really increases apparent sharpness even under less strenuous conditions. As far as I know that feature is unique among current Ortho films.
 

Drew Bedo

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When I worked with Ektascan in the clinic, the safelights for the X-Ray films were too bright and fogged our Nuclear Medicine films. We ran film and reloaded film holders in total d
 
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