My first Large format camera!!??

Sceptic · Feb 2, 2014

Hello everyone!

i am new to the forum but not to film! I have been shooting in mf for some time.

I have the opportunity to pick up a Horseman 45HF with sinaron 90mm f4.5 along with four film holders for $1,000. Apparently the porthole was modified in order to accommodate this lens and others.

The camera appears to be in great condition and i will be able to check it out before getting it. Being thag i am new i would appreciate advice in this area! Quick suggestions would be appreciated!

fralexis · Feb 2, 2014

Sound a bit too much in my opinion.

Sceptic · Feb 3, 2014

Do you mind if i ask what you think would be a fair amount for this setup?

mgb74 · Feb 3, 2014

The Sinaron lenses are not your "normal" large format lens with a typical leaf shutter. I don't know the specifics, but perhaps others can chime in.

If the lensboard was modified for this lens, you should make sure that additional lensboards are available for the Horseman. Horseman is/was a well respected brand and the 45HF appears to be an appealing technical camera. $1000 for body and lens may be a bit on the high side, but I'm not sure by much.

The important thing is to understand the characteristics of the Sinaron lens/shutter and make sure it fit your needs.

Randy Moe · Feb 3, 2014

Depends on condition. If the outfit is perfect in all ways it is worth that much. I love Horseman and have plenty of it. There is nothing better. A quality mod that does not affect using normal lensboards is a non issue and it is an improvement to make the camera useful with more lenses. I may do that to mine,, actually just checked my HD and my porthole is as big as it can get.

If you have a bad feeling pass on it, but don't not pass on Horseman. They are very well made.

Somebody will always tell you they got a better deal. Show me. Sell me a better deal.

Oren Grad · Feb 3, 2014

The Sinaron 90mm f/4.5 is a superb lens - it's the same as the Rodenstock Grandagon 90mm f/4.5. Yes, it's commonly available in Copal leaf shutter like other lenses; not all Sinarons are mounted in the special DB board for Sinar monorails with Sinar shutter.

The price for that combination would be fine, but there's a very big IF:

Normally, the rear cell of the 90/4.5 is too large to fit through the opening of a Horseman 45HF. Presumably what has been done is that the front standard has been carved out to accommodate the large rear cell. Because the front standard of the Horseman field cameras is so small to begin with, I'd really need to see the result in order to judge whether I'd be comfortable with it - has there been any effect on the structural integrity of the front standard or on its function, has the bellows been affected, etc.

Also bear in mind that 90mm is distinctly wide for 4x5. It may not be the best choice of focal length for an only lens if you're just getting started in LF.

johnielvis · Feb 3, 2014

Don't buy until YOU are sure. You are not an informed consumer. watch prices on craigslist, the for sale section here and the large format photography forum. After a few months, you'll get a feel for the prices. There is an oversupply of 4x5 monorails currently. Check KEH website for 4x5 cameras and 90mm lenses--you can get a better deal there. It's doubtful anyone with his wits about him would shell out a grand for that setup--unless it was packed with coke or weed or something.

GENIUS IDEA---put a fake ad on here or craigslist for sale of that system--see if you can get some pics of it...if you get a buyer quickly, then you're getting a good deal!

If you can't sell it, keep lowering the price till someone jumps...THEN that's the "good deal" price.

A Sabai · Feb 3, 2014

Welcome to large format. You already bought the set up so don't worry about the price. Set up the camera and have fun! Speaking of which, I should do the same with mine.

pasiasty · Feb 3, 2014

Monorail cameras tend to be much cheaper, I bought my first Cambo SC-2 with three lenses, a pair of bellows, a roll-film holder etc for about $670 - in Europe, where things are usually more expensive. Yet a monorail practically limits you to a studio.

mgb74 · Feb 3, 2014

First of all, unless I'm mistaken, the 45HF is a technical (field) camera, not a monorail. Monorails are perfectly fine, cheaper, and not necessarily limited to a studio. But again, the 45HF isn't a monorail.

KEH is a good resource, as is ebay "sold" listings. I typically figure 75% of KEH's price is fair for a private party sale (condition being equal).

BTW, it's more important to worry about whether the camera and lens is right for you, and in proper condition, than to worry about whether you're getting the absolute best price. I can virtually guarantee that, no matter what you pay, someone somewhere will get a better deal on something (and be happy to tell you about it).

So does the 45HF has the features you want? Does it offer the expandability you need (things like bag bellows, roll film backs - if those things matter)? Can you easily get additional lensboards for it?

Really not much different than if you were buying a new MF camera.

Sceptic · Feb 3, 2014

i would like to thank everyone for their suggestions and advice. The comments seem to be somewhat mixed. I asked for some additional pictures (of the modification as well).

I see a few suggestions about monorails. However this is meant to be a field camera, Most of my photography revolves around urban exploration. Therefore a light and compact LF camera is ideal, & the horseman appears to meet those standards.

Additionally I am comfortable and enjoy using UWA in a majority of my photography. On my dslr I used a 10-22mm, on MF i mainly used 50mm & 65mm. If i am not mistaken the 90mm on the 4x5 should be something around 30mm as compared to a 35mm setup? I know the sizes are not to be compared but i used that as a general idea of what i would be attaining.

Maybe after i post a couple pictures of the condition and modification i could have some more advice.

I also plan on developing and scanning on my own as i have done in the past. I have an epson v600 so I would need to upgrade to the v700 unless someone has a better suggestion for scanning 4x5.

Thanks!!!

pasiasty · Feb 3, 2014

If you're into UWA, you should rather look for something more modern, like Chamonix, or Shenhao. The Horseman has minimum bellows extension of 70mm, so practically the shortest lens you could use with some movements possible would be 90mm. There are of course recessed lens-boards, but some lenses are extremely difficult to operate when mounted such a way. Grandagon 58/5.6 is an example, but I can use it with my Chamonix on a flat board.

Sceptic · Feb 3, 2014

Hm... I also have the option of a Horseman VH with a 65mm 5.6 TOPCOR lens for under $500 - but I believe this isnt 4x5

mgb74 · Feb 3, 2014

The VH is a very different (2x3) beast. The first question I would have is what does in provide over your current medium format. Certainly front movements - but is that important to you. Is a roll film holder included; does that matter to you? Does it use standard graflex 2x3 film holders?

2x3 sheet film is the "red headed step child" of sheet film. It's availability is limited and offers little/no cost advantage over 4x5. So I would be inclined to rely on roll film.

pbromaghin · Feb 3, 2014

Doesn't the VH take a 6x9 back, too? Depending on what your current MF setup is, this could be the best of all worlds for you. If you're shooting 645, you double your neg size, you won't have to buy a new scanner and you get the cool movements of a field camera without all the trouble of sheet film. I oftentimes wonder if I would have been better off getting something in that size instead of taking the leap to 4x5 from 6x6 and 35mm.

Sirius Glass · Feb 3, 2014

Also check out http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/

Sceptic · Feb 3, 2014

I actually have the RZ67ii so 6x7 already. And i shoot with my rollei tlr when i travel light, maybe i should wait to transition... I get excited and like to jump in. And im in one of those moods now

Sirius Glass · Feb 3, 2014

www.graflex.org

Sceptic · Feb 4, 2014

Thanks for the links!

Looks like I will probably be going with a Crown Graphic to start. However just because I said I'd post the mod pictures, I will put them up in case it is an option for upgrade in the future. Thanks!

Terry Christian · Feb 4, 2014

A Crown would be the ideal LF camera for urban exploration photos. Just make sure the rangefinder is in working order so you can handhold and not necessarily stay limited to a tripod. (Mine doesn't work, so I have to use it as a view camera.)

As for scanning, I have the V600 and I scan my 4x5 negatives in two passes, joining them with Photoshop's Automate-Photomerge function.

Sceptic · Feb 4, 2014

Hey Terry, thanks for the advice! I'm mostly on my tripod, handheld shooting is rare for me. Is the photo merge function accurate? Time consuming? It sounds like an option for me, but do I need any special trays or film holders for the scanning? How do you go about it, just lay them flat on the glass? THANKS!

Shawn Dougherty · Feb 4, 2014

Sceptic said:
Looks like I will probably be going with a Crown Graphic to start.

I would consider that more carefully, it may or may not work for you depending on your needs. For me and many other view camera workers the Crown would not be sufficient.

The Crown Graphic does not have front tilt in the forward direction. For me and the way I work front tilt (forward) is by far the most important movement on a field/view camera. I would not use one without it.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/cameras/pacemaker/

Good luck with whatever you end up buying!

Roger Cole · Feb 4, 2014

Shawn Dougherty said:
I would consider that more carefully, it may or may not work for you depending on your needs. For me and many other view camera workers the Crown would not be sufficient.

The Crown Graphic does not have front tilt in the forward direction. For me and the way I work front tilt (forward) is by far the most important movement on a field/view camera. I would not use one without it.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/cameras/pacemaker/

Good luck with whatever you end up buying!

Why not? My Tech III doesn't have it either, and I don't really miss it. Normally I prefer back tilt anyway. It causes some shape distortion but this is more often an advantage or neutral than a problem, causing foreground objects to appear larger. On the rare occasions I absolutely, positively have to have front tilt I turn the camera sideways on the tripod and use the front swing as a tilt.

But wait - the Crown doesn't have back movements at all, does it? THAT would be a problem, unless it did have front swing that could be used by turning it 90 degrees on the tripod.

EDIT: Checked that article you linked - I wouldn't want it either for landscapes with lack of any rear movements, lack of front tilt AND lack of front swing. At least one of those is essential to me.

Shawn Dougherty · Feb 4, 2014

Roger Cole said:
Why not? My Tech III doesn't have it either, and I don't really miss it. Normally I prefer back tilt anyway. It causes some shape distortion but this is more often an advantage or neutral than a problem, causing foreground objects to appear larger. On the rare occasions I absolutely, positively have to have front tilt I turn the camera sideways on the tripod and use the front swing as a tilt.

But wait - the Crown doesn't have back movements at all, does it? THAT would be a problem, unless it did have front swing that could be used by turning it 90 degrees on the tripod.

EDIT: Checked that article you linked - I wouldn't want it either for landscapes with lack of any rear movements, lack of front tilt AND lack of front swing. At least one of those is essential to me.

Why not? If you know what front tilt forward does then you can surely understand the need for some work, especially landscape work, where front to back sharpness is desired as well as architectural work for various reasons.

As you've mentioned, back tilts change the shape of the image, whether that is good or bad would no doubt vary by situation and individual preference. There is not back tilt on the camera anyway (as you've added).

As far as creating movements with swing, I don't like turning my view camera on it's side, even with my Ries tripod that provides plenty of support. Plus, if you need both swing and front tilt you'd be out of luck.

Roger Cole · Feb 4, 2014

Shawn Dougherty said:
Why not? If you know what front tilt forward does then you can surely understand the need for some work, especially landscape work, where front to back sharpness is desired as well as architectural work for various reasons.

As you've mentioned, back tilts change the shape of the image, whether that is good or bad would no doubt vary by situation and individual preference. There is not back tilt on the camera anyway (as you've added).

As far as creating movements with swing, I don't like turning my view camera on it's side, even with my Ries tripod that provides plenty of support. And of course if you need both swing and front tilt you'd be out of luck.

I'd repeat "why not?" in the case of having back movements and front swing. Yes, I know why you want it - but more often than not I prefer back tilt FOR the size "distortion." If not, I turn the camera sideways. The only lack would be if you need both swing and tilt, as you say.

I think we agree, except that you don't like back tilt as much as I do (I can count on, well, the fingers of one finger the number of times I've used front swing as tilt rather than just using back tilt) and I don't object to turning my camera sideways. YMMV of course.

My first Large format camera!!??

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