My first fiber based printing session...

kraker · Jul 25, 2007

Wow. I just got out of the darkroom. Been printing RC for years and years, never got to try fiber based. I always knew I wanted to try it "someday", but it just never happened.

Until today. I decided to try some of the FB paper we received at the Ilford APUG tour. The prints may look *beep* when I see them in full daylight tomorrow, but... it has *such* a nice look and feel, very nice to work with. Completely different than PE/RC.

My very first print? Well, :rolleyes: the very first FB print was NOT on the emulsion side. OK, so now I know, it's the other side that has the emulsion. Second print? Way, way underexposed. Yeah, OK, I can't just take the time I found for RC paper and use that on the FB. Still, you have to start somewhere... Third print: test strips. Fourth and fifth are still in the water, I'll hang them to dry overnight and I'll look again tomorrow. I hope at least one of those turns out fine.

Anyhow... I just wanted to share this first experience, and APUG seems like the right place (most of my friends wouldn't understand my enthousiasm anyway You did *what*? Oh, I use my all-in-one printer/scanner/fax for that...).

Blighty · Jul 25, 2007

Good for you! Watch out for the dreaded 'dry-down'!

foxyscootie · Jul 25, 2007

Congrats! I have some fiber @ home that I want to try, but I'm afraid. Think I'll give it a shot tonight though. Thanks for the inspiration & the notes on what to avoid.

Shawn Dougherty · Jul 25, 2007

Once you go fiber you never go back... or something like that. Congrats. Best. Shawn

sistinedream · Jul 25, 2007

Shawn Dougherty said:
Once you go fiber you never go back... or something like that. Congrats. Best. Shawn

Ha, I second that!

sistinedream · Jul 25, 2007

kraker said:
Wow. I just got out of the darkroom. Been printing RC for years and years, never got to try fiber based. I always knew I wanted to try it "someday", but it just never happened.

Until today. I decided to try some of the FB paper we received at the Ilford APUG tour. The prints may look *beep* when I see them in full daylight tomorrow, but... it has *such* a nice look and feel, very nice to work with. Completely different than PE/RC.

My very first print? Well, :rolleyes: the very first FB print was NOT on the emulsion side. OK, so now I know, it's the other side that has the emulsion. Second print? Way, way underexposed. Yeah, OK, I can't just take the time I found for RC paper and use that on the FB. Still, you have to start somewhere... Third print: test strips. Fourth and fifth are still in the water, I'll hang them to dry overnight and I'll look again tomorrow. I hope at least one of those turns out fine.

Anyhow... I just wanted to share this first experience, and APUG seems like the right place (most of my friends wouldn't understand my enthousiasm anyway You did *what*? Oh, I use my all-in-one printer/scanner/fax for that...).

I'm sure they turned out fine
There's so many pro's of using fiber based paper.. I use Forte Elegance whenever I can, but I've never had any problems with Ilford. I like semi-glossy or glossy and only use matte when I hand-color.

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Jul 25, 2007

kraker said:
Wow. I just got out of the darkroom. ....

Whooo-hoo! Isn't it awesome to hold an actual fiber print in your hand? The thing just oozes quality and feelings of achievement.

I've noticed that with "modern" papers like Ilford MG or Kentmere, the drydown is not too much of a worry. Most of the time, I print using what looks right when wet, and the dry results are below my awareness threshiold. More "traditional" papers I used like those from Forte or Fotokemika do have visible drydown effects, perhaps a 1/4 of a stop.

Wait tiill you start toning the prints, you'll be enthralled by the flexibility of fiber!

BWKate · Jul 25, 2007

Way to go Kraker!

It's such a different feeling than RC isn't it. I love the feel of the fiber paper both when you're printing it and when it's dry. I use a Sealmount drymount press to flatten my Fiber. I usually use an entire sheet of paper when I'm making my test strips so I can get a better idea of what I'm working with on the entire print. It seems very wasteful but I find that I get closer to what I'm wanting quicker. I'll have to post one of my "test prints" to show you what I'm talking about.
I also find with fiber that the blacks can have a beautiful velvety depth that RC doesn't posess. You just can't hurry when you are printing fiber. It's a slower process but the rewards are great when you get a print that sings!
Have fun and lots more fiber printing sessions!

CraigH · Jul 25, 2007

I like the feel of FB paper. It's like an old friend. RC just doesn't feel right.

Craig

mmcclellan · Jul 25, 2007

Yes, indeed, there is no comparison between fiber and resin-ruined paper! I have not touched RC paper for at least 20 years and even then never enjoyed processing it. It just does not feel the same as FB and it sure doesn't give you the quality and tonality that the old reliable papers do.

Don't look back -- clean out your darkroom of RC stuff while you can, stock up on good FB paper (and there are several good ones out there!), and give your negs the prints they deserve!

rmartin · Jul 26, 2007

I did my first 8x10 FB about a month ago then did an 11x14 of the same pic on RC. The RC felt like a placemat compared to the FB. All the comment about the feel of FB are dead-on.

The wash and drying flat is keeping me from doing FB except for ones that I know I want that FB look and feel. RC is just sooo easy by comparison. Something about having one's cake and eating too, I guess.

kraker · Jul 26, 2007

Hi, it's fun to see so many replies. Some random thoughts back:

Regarding dry-down... Well, I only had a quick glance at the photos this morning before heading off to work, and they looked a bit darker than yesterday, when they were still wet. Is that what "should happen"? So, I should maybe expose a *bit* shorter because of the changes when drying?

I'm not tossing out my RC papers just yet, it's just a bit quicker to print a larger selection of negatives. Then I can choose a few from those and print them on FB. But I really, really love the look and feel of fibre.

It gets me thinking about the set-up of my darkroom (which we call "bathroom" 95% of the time)... Space is limited, and with an extra dish with water in there, it's really starting to get cramped. (I didn't wash in flowing water, I just refreshed the water in the dish 3 or 4 times during an hour.)

So, maybe I should start looking for a print washer (whether it be archival or not) and/or... well, I'm getting tempted to buy a Nova slot processor. That would really save some space... Oh, and there's the drying. I could get me a paper dryer... Mmm, I could spend some money on this hobby

Dietmar Wolf · Jul 26, 2007

The small ones for the photo album, I do with RC.
So I can easily and fast print some negs which are o.k. for family etc.

The bigger ones for the wall and for myself I do with fibre.

Akki14 · Jul 26, 2007

I must be weird, I don't like FB (I tried it out a few weeks ago with my samples from the APUG tour too). It's definitely has an almost velvety black colour and it's ultra-matt surfaced but the extra hassle involved with washing it and then trying to flatten dried prints doesn't make it that great in my eyes.

Steve Smith · Jul 26, 2007

Akki14 said:
I must be weird, I don't like FB (I tried it out a few weeks ago with my samples from the APUG tour too). It's definitely has an almost velvety black colour and it's ultra-matt surfaced but the extra hassle involved with washing it and then trying to flatten dried prints doesn't make it that great in my eyes.

Don't worry, I'm weird too! It's not that I don't like FB paper, It's because I don't mind RC paper and I worry about the amount of water used to wash FB (we have water meters).

I also have some FB paper from the Ilford tour and I will try it but I don't think modern RC paper is as bad as some people would have us believe.

Steve.

ChrisC · Jul 26, 2007

I can't wait to do mine. I've been meaning to buy some FB paper and try, but I'm a little worried about the paper crinkling up and not being able to get it flat again.

Mike Té · Jul 26, 2007

From the perspective of a beginner (return to printing x last 3 years), I'm not in the least impressed with FB, either.

My first recognition of an FB print was after an acquaintance proudly showed me one of his prints. It was a nice photo, but I couldn't help thinking what lousy paper it was printed on, all rumpled up.

I've since tried FB on several occasions. I cannot yet succeed in getting one single print to remain adequately flat for say, framing. I've tried blotters, weighed down very heavily and I've recently acquired a new old-stock Premier dryer which can't tame them either. Dried completely and allowed to cool completely in the drier gives best results, but not adequate. Dry mounting then improves things further but there always still remains a ripple or two along an edge.

I've recently acquired a dry-mount press which should fix things...

However, it seems to be a heck of a lot of trouble, expense and massive waste of water.

And I can't see a heck of a lot of difference in quality of the image between same brands/grades/tones of RC and FB. I'm most certainly nowhere near the epiphany that many of you seem to describe.

kman627 · Jul 26, 2007

FB is the paper for me.

In my opinion there's no question that FB paper is superior in terms of quality, both tonal wise and also in terms of feeling. I have nothing against RC paper for use is certain applocations, such as quick prints for family members and album prints. But if I put an RC print and an FB print side by side, the FB wins in aestetics every time.

Yes, it is a lot more work, but I'd say worth the extra work. After drying I put it in a large coffee table book for a couple of days and then it's flat indefinitley. Personal favorite? - Definitley Fotokemika Varycon Matte. It's got a fantastic surface and amazing tonal range. The prints just feel so alive.

ben-s · Jul 26, 2007

I tried the warmtone FB from the Ilford tour, and loved the look, although it's a bit of a pain to handle.
I was surprised though - when I showed the family, they all preferred the RC print.

I guess I'm wierd like Akki14 and Steve... How about we start a club for the appreciation of RC prints?

keithwms · Jul 26, 2007

When I showed some friends my first FB prints (which wasn't that long ago), they wanted to touch them. I never got that response with RC. The fiber surface texture is really alluring. It's almost a crime to put them behind glass!

Kraker, one thing you may want to get your hands on, now that you have delved into fiber, is a dry mount press. After the wash I let the prints air dry and then after that, I stack them in a dry mount press, interleaved with tracing paper. You don't even need to turn the dry mount heat on- if you just leave them in the press for a day or two you'll have nice flat fiber prints. I used to fuss with clipping prints back to back and rotating them as they dried and all that, not any more. Just press 'em!

BTW I have a paper dryer and never use it, I seem to get better results when letting them slowly air dry.

Also the dry-down effect (changing of tones) hasn't been a big deal for me, and I feel like I recover most of the apparent Dmax upon Se toning. If I were doing a lot of portrait prints with important skin tones then I would probably pay more attention to dry down.

I agree with the comments above, fiber works far better with most of my prints than RC, because of the surface texture, and the Dmax is competitive with RC if the prints are toned. There are so many nice toning options with FB.

One other thing that you probably know already: I started to get much better results with fiber after I did a quick wash in water with photo-flo and then followed that by a long wash in an archival print washer. A print washer is a must-have if you do a lot of fiber printing, in my opinion.

frugal · Jul 26, 2007

kraker said:
Regarding dry-down... Well, I only had a quick glance at the photos this morning before heading off to work, and they looked a bit darker than yesterday, when they were still wet. Is that what "should happen"? So, I should maybe expose a *bit* shorter because of the changes when drying?

Yes, the print will darken a little bit when it dries compared to how it looked in water. What I'd typically do when I was printing some fibre (no darkroom right now, sigh) was print to what I thought looked good and then do a couple of prints with less exposure times. Of course at the time I was also trying to break my habit of printing too dark so I'd usually find that printing a little lighter would still hold a black, and then I'd go a bit lighter than that to account for dry down.

That's a lot of paper though so if you want to get serious about it you should test your paper and figure out how much to adjust your exposure (as a percentage) to account for dry down. I'd have to double check Les McLean's book but if memory serves, the process involved printing one print to exactly how you want the final print to look, you keep that print in a water bath. Then you make a series of prints with less exposure (and mark how much less exposure so you can keep them straight) and fully dry them and find the one that's the best match to the wet print, then calculate what percentage you reduced the exposure by, that will be how much you should adjust your exposure for with future prints on that paper.

What you then do is all your test prints and nail down your exposure time, any dodging and burning and so on, then reduce everything by that percentage for the final print.

As for drying (in other comments), I had access to the art college's darkrooms when I was printing fibre, there we'd squeegee the prints after washing and dry them on screens. After that we'd flatten them in a dry mount press (sandwiched between some other paper to protect the prints, usually did one print at a time). That gives you really nice flat prints which will only have a slight curl to them. The other big thing I've noticed also is that proper squeegee technique can make a huge difference in how wrinkled the prints are.

DWThomas · Jul 26, 2007

I've just begun to sneak back into printing myself and I've discovered two things that seem to work for FB flatness (at least for me). One is to air dry them, but try to catch them when they're not quite utterly bone dry and place them under a large flat weight interleaving the prints with paper. (Since the largest I've done is 11x14, paper towel works -- although it may not be the best idea.) The other, if they are already dry, is to take a damp (slightly wet but not sloppy wet) sponge and wipe the backs of the prints, then interleave with paper and weight them. It's a perfect application for those monster "coffee table" books that seem to accumulate but seldom get looked at.

DaveT

Andrew O'Neill · Jul 26, 2007

they looked a bit darker than yesterday, when they were still wet

When printing, your inspection light is also very very important. Too bright or too dim will give you nothing but problems.

Removed Account · Jul 26, 2007

I've recently switched to FB paper, well supplied by Rob Skeoch, and it is taking me a while to get the hang of it. Used 25 sheets of Kentmere Bromide without getting a print that I'm thrilled with, but to me honest that has more to do with my neg-making skills... I do love just holding the prints, they feel absolutely lovely. With both Kentmere Bromide and Ilford MGIV I've noticed that hanging them until water no longer drips off of them then drying them overnight emulsion-side up on some matboard leaves them nearly flat. I've been meaning to try ironing them (with a clothes iron) under some matboard, then leaving them under coffee-table books as suggested when I posted on this a while ago, but have not done so yet.

I sympathise with the OP and the difficulty in learning which side of the paper is the emulsion. It was easier with the glossy Kentmere, but my initial box of MGIV matte I had a heck of a time figuring it out. Not sure whether I prefer matte or glossy yet, the matte is VERY matte, and the glossy Kentmere is only slightly glossier than matte RC, which is nice. I will say that I absolutely adore the texture of the matte fiber paper, even if I made a terrible print I just love holding it. They seem crispy and smooth. I don't mind the feel of RC, and the cost factor and "flatness" are very nice, but unless I am having money problems I will stick with FB for now.

- Justin

BWKate · Jul 26, 2007

Justin,
Where do you do your printing? I tried the Kentmere FB and I was getting some slight fogging. I think my current safelight is not safe for that kind of paper.

My first fiber based printing session...

kraker

Blighty

foxyscootie

Shawn Dougherty

sistinedream

sistinedream

Michel Hardy-Vallée

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BWKate

CraigH

mmcclellan

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kraker

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Akki14

Steve Smith

ChrisC

Mike Té

kman627

ben-s

keithwms

frugal

DWThomas

Andrew O'Neill

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BWKate

My first fiber based printing session...

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