My experience with DR5

olwick · Mar 2, 2010

And one last thing before I sign off for the day: At both the begining "important note" and at the very end, I reiterated that I know DR5 has many happy customers. All I wanted to do was relay my experience. I know I'm likely the exception, but I also know what I wrote was truthful. I'm sure things are percieved differently by everyone involved, but this is my perspective. I respect those of you who disagree and have had great experiences with them. I certainly wish DR5 well.

Mahler_one · Mar 2, 2010

dr5chrome said:
here we go again..

Mark, sorry you are having all of these issues. I fail to understand why you never contacted us 1st [by phone]? Was this by design?

1st I can only ask patients of clients when our conditions are such that our turn time exceeds the posted on our website. It is a juggle between quality, little or very high volumes. In this case, very high volumes. We do the best we can.

EMAIL. The communication problem by email was you not us. Your email was not working, at least on our end, we did try to work around it.

PAYMENT; again this issue is conveniently left out of the complaint. Because Mr. Olwick's email was not working and my assistant tried to call [no answer], his order was delayed because his CC declined. This was the 'bulk' of his 'delay'.

SHIPPING; at the time we sent your package we had missed pick-ups for FEDEX ground, we do-not use UPS. we sent your order USPS-signature: 420981039121805213907122497313. If you did not get the track notice, again, this is a problem with your email, this track info comes direct from USPS.

The "on-line" comments are a pointless reply.

Arrogant comments, again... how is it that, helping is received as arrogant :confused: When did this ever occur? Please explain... I am not an arrogant person.

I will make the point again here that we are not perfect, no one is.
I will not have film run unless our line is "SPOT-ON". This is the bulk of our service delays, like it or not. I WILL NOT soup film if our line is off, I don't care how badly you want your order or how loud the complaint is. Quality is our #1 priority, period.

Mr. Olwick, as far as your films quality, id have to see it to make a judgment, but we have had no service issues during this time. I do have notes on this order about 'old film use', poor exposure, incorrect exposure for the film type in dr5 & protecting your film against fogging,, but I wont try to embarrass you as you have tried to do to us on this public forum.
If by some small chance there was a problem on our end Id be happy to rectify it.

We do help clients with additional free testing that cant get it right the 1st time, but I don't think this is your intention.

regards.

www.dr5.com :confused:

Well done. Appears to me that justice a few hours delayed has been done. Nevertheless, it would have been better for the critical posting AND the answer to have been posted together at the exact same time. Seems as though dr5 is making every effort to be reasonable, and I hope the individual who had some issues can be mollified by what appears to be a very sincere apology. Done.

olwick · Mar 2, 2010

The one comment that can be percieved as arrogant, David, is the fact that you insist that somehow I own hotmail and can fix their infrastructure. The only control I have is adding you to my safe list. That's it and I did that. You mentioned that you've had multiple customers who use hotmail not recieve your mails, yet you see it as MY problem to fix. You've said so repeatedly. Why wouldn't you see this as a business problem? I don't understand.

You also said that I never mentioned the CC decline. I certainly did. Please read my post.

I did call and also left a voice mail. It was never returned.

I had no indication that anyone on your side ever tried callling me. Both my cell phone and home phone have the capability to show missed calls (they also have voice mail). If there was an attempt, it didn't show up on either.

All of the film was fresh that I sent - I was very careful about that since your site repeatedly warns about that. I purchased it all at the local pro photo store in Seattle (who houses it all in refrigerators) and also double-checked the expiration date. I wasn't anywhere close to the expiry date.

As far as exposure concerns, that really had nothing to do with your processing, which is why I never brought it up as a concern.

And to be clear - I never once pushed for anything to be rushed. All I wanted was a status update. From my perspective I sent my film in and never heard a word. Please try to see this from a customer perspective

And to those of you on this thread whose first reaction is to attack the poster (me), all I can say is that everything I said is accurate and truthful. And I'll repeat it now for the 4th time - I know many of you are happy with DR5. I get that. That doesn't change my experience though.

I know DR5 is offering a unique product and I truly wish them well.

seanmophoto · Mar 2, 2010

ok... If you are an English teacher maybe you can make some legit points on how you came to this conclusion. How would you reply to un-truths about your business?

actually I'm a photography teacher but I don't see how that matters
more importantly I'm also a small business owner who does most of his client communication through email and am very careful in the tone I take in forum and online responses
please note this is all just my opinion...take it as you will

This is the second post I have seen of this kind on APUG...I found the first a while ago when I was researching DR5 for possibly developing some of my film

the original poster made what I thought was a reasonable post on his experience with DR5 and explained in great detail what happened. obviously it was only one side of the story, but again it seemed reasonable to me

while I applaud you for coming on the board and defending yourself, I think it can be dangerous for vendors to do that...I frequent Fred Miranda a lot and Paul Buff, owner of Alien Bees has gotten into many online arguments with clients and members on that forum and hasn't really looked good doing it. Forums and email are an imperfect form of communication and short, concise, non-argumentative communication works best especially in a vendor-client relationship.

I'm not saying you should let things go unchallenged, but from my perspective it seems you are defending yourself too vigorously from a client
I guess I feel like a vendor should be a little more conciliatory towards a client, even if things are not the vendor's fault and even if the client might have some facts wrong. Let them save face.

To me it just looks bad when a vendor defends themselves too vigorously against a post that seems reasonable and definitely doesn't come off as a 'crank' post

so to me, your post came across as very 'I'm right and he's wrong' which I doubt is the case and I would think the truth is somewhere in the middle and therefore...a tad arrogant

the 'here we go again' didn't help either...as if anyone who posts negatively is wrong or a crank

again, just my opinion

thebanana · Mar 2, 2010

thebanana said:
Public floggings should be banned.

I've read nothing on this thread that would make me change my mind. The moderators are just that, they're not mediators, which is something quite different. The rest of us are not in a positon to make informed judgements based on snippets of information from either side, so what's the point?

hrst · Mar 2, 2010

seanmophoto said:
the 'here we go again' didn't help either...as if anyone who posts negatively is wrong or a crank

In fact, in this context it's explicitly almost the same as: "I have this kind of problems quite often". When it's probably not true at all, and not the intented meaning at all, it's not a great phrase to start with.

thebanana,

While I agree that public floggings should be banned, I cannot see any here.

You are underestimating people's skill and right to make their own decisions. The purpose of moderation clearly cannot be to quiet down "wrong" viewpoints, and as far as I know, this is not the case in APUG.

jovo · Mar 2, 2010

Were this thread not already posted to by moderators, I would have, as a council member, wanted it to be considered as worthy of moderation. OTOH, David is wise and experienced in governance of this site, and his participation has made me reflective of the legitimacy of this thread as a civil, if unpleasant to read kind of exchange. Its' value seems to be in the advice to not only rely on current technology for communication, but on the telephone, actual mail, and whatever else can lead to the resolution of problems by people of good will as I'm sure DR5 and the OP are.

mikebarger · Mar 2, 2010

If you think this thread is is rough on the vendor, better not read any threads relating to Kodak.

Mike

hrst · Mar 2, 2010

Moderators who moderate based on their personal & totally subjective opinions of people and give different people different value based on who they happen to like as a "fine people", are totally unsuited to be moderators. Sadly, this is too often the case on Internet forums, but if that was the case here, I and probably many people would leave and stop supporting it. LUCKILY this is not the case at APUG; I've seen in many occasions that we have a fine forum with wise and equal moderation. The few times I've got scolded are the ones when it was appropriate. I think that one of the reasons APUG can flourish like this is a very business-like moderation.

OP and David have the same value as human beings. The fact that many people know David as a fine person, does not mean that OP couldn't be a fine person too, even if he has some issue going on with David. These kind of things happen in life, and especially in business! In fact, OP has many times explicitly stated that he does not want to fight and want to value dr5chrome's work. So please, stop turning this into a fight.

I know the feeling when you have to read "unpleasant" things about your friends, but, again, that's just normal life. If it's too unpleasant, maybe you should decide that this time you are non-competent due to personal feelings, and skip this thread?

If the communication has failed (Wiio's law), it is not surprising that OP has become a bit doubtful and want other people to hear and evaluate his case. As he stated, he has tried to directly address the problem but was unable to get through.

The only correct way to solve the problem is between dr5chrome and OP, now as they have found a way to contact each other after the initial problems. It would be good to hear the resolution also publicly, as the starting was public. And it would be nice to give they a chance to do it, instead of taking the discussion away from the actual problem by scolding the OP for opening his mouth.

To everyone---; Don't get too touchy. This kind of things happen in business, to everyone, and they can usually be solved by talking.

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 2, 2010

One thing we've tried to avoid on APUG is to give the appearance that we give preferential treatment by suppressing complaints about advertisers or businesses that we support that don't advertise on APUG. Some of the major photography magazines over the years have had that cloud looming over them, and I think it has cost them credibility among the kinds of people who are active on APUG.

If the mudslinging gets personal or if matters that are better kept private start entering the discussion, then we'll shut it down, but so far, it's been fairly civil, if unpleasant.

What has been remarkable about these kinds of complaint threads, in my opinion, is that APUG users will vigorously challenge complaints that are unfair, and when the merchant sees a public complaint as an opportunity rather than a burden, they tend to come out looking better in the end as long as they can maintain an even handed and temperate tone in their reply and can respond in a way that most feel is fair and reasonable. If any merchant wants an example of how to handle a situation like this, I recommend reading the posts of Henry Posner from B&H on APUG ("henryp") and other forums like photo.net.

Pavel+ · Mar 2, 2010

The arrogant, know it all post is yours seanphoto. give it up. And I AM an English teacher.

mikebarger · Mar 2, 2010

You're kidding, right??

Mike

removed account4 · Mar 2, 2010

it always amazes me that people can't find a solution to their problems
using the telephone ( even calling back a few times! )
before airing their dirty laundry out in public.

i have only heard great things about dr5, not only their work,
but their customer service and how they bend over backwards to
help their customer. ....

dr5chrome · Mar 2, 2010

While Ill end this, 'take-2' complaint, hopefully on an up note, You are more than welcome to ask me these questions off forum. I think you are being as unfair as Mr Olwick. All of these issues could have been resolved off forum, I am pretty reasonable and fair. I have nothing to gain by causing someone grief. I expect these posts more than any other lab, because of what I do is unique, is film, and we have several clients here. It was suggested to me by a colleague @ Freestyle to respond to complaints like this on forums, truthfully as possible. So ill take his word over yours if you don't mind, thanks.

As a photographer myself I want to see everyone get good images, this is why I do what I do. I'm not doing this to get rich, I care more about the service to photography. If you knew this about me/dr5 the word 'arrogant' would not be brought up. I am surprised a teacher would want to be so involved in such a thread... just my opinion.

Mr Olwick: you are free to "call" us with your issues. The phone we have for you just rings.

dw

seanmophoto said:
actually I'm a photography teacher but I don't see how that matters
more importantly I'm also a small business owner who does most of his client communication through email and am very careful in the tone I take in forum and online responses
please note this is all just my opinion...take it as you will

This is the second post I have seen of this kind on APUG...I found the first a while ago when I was researching DR5 for possibly developing some of my film

the original poster made what I thought was a reasonable post on his experience with DR5 and explained in great detail what happened. obviously it was only one side of the story, but again it seemed reasonable to me

while I applaud you for coming on the board and defending yourself, I think it can be dangerous for vendors to do that...I frequent Fred Miranda a lot and Paul Buff, owner of Alien Bees has gotten into many online arguments with clients and members on that forum and hasn't really looked good doing it. Forums and email are an imperfect form of communication and short, concise, non-argumentative communication works best especially in a vendor-client relationship.

I'm not saying you should let things go unchallenged, but from my perspective it seems you are defending yourself too vigorously from a client
I guess I feel like a vendor should be a little more conciliatory towards a client, even if things are not the vendor's fault and even if the client might have some facts wrong. Let them save face.

To me it just looks bad when a vendor defends themselves too vigorously against a post that seems reasonable and definitely doesn't come off as a 'crank' post

so to me, your post came across as very 'I'm right and he's wrong' which I doubt is the case and I would think the truth is somewhere in the middle and therefore...a tad arrogant

the 'here we go again' didn't help either...as if anyone who posts negatively is wrong or a crank

again, just my opinion

Bob Carnie · Mar 3, 2010

Like many if not all here , I am deeply commited to photography, live ,breath it when my day job is over. (in my case printing)

I photograph, process my film and print, and I participate here in a friendly manner. I do enjoy learning new things, *thanks Ralph L* and though I have been in the buisness since 76 , I find the depth of knowledge here and on LLF mindbending and worth being a part of.

I take pride in my work at Elevator , but I can assure you I do make mistakes with customers every now and then.
Who has not gone to their favorite restaurant, and walked away unsatisfied now and then.

Like Dave at DR5 , I have had people attack my lab on a forum, without my knowledge and I can assure you it is very upsetting and extremely time consuming to try to put out the fire , usually during working hours when I should be printing , I do feel compelled to defend myself or staff, it's impossible not to react, and in the moment may go overboard with my response.
Running a lab is like a good restaurant, a very full day with lots of problems coming at you from various points, and like most of you here , I find opening up APUG and LLF fun and relaxing where I can ask questions and answer if I have them about the one thing in my life (other than Laura and the dogs) that I love and cherish.

I cannot speak directly for Dave , but I will try and he can correct me if he wants

I and others(like Dave) in photography related shops are here at APUG are here to participate in the forums to learn and help newbies in a craft that we love and not to mine the thousands of photographers for potential clients or users of our services. Elevator btw has a digital at its end and not very appropriate for APUG.
I have met many friends here who have helped me over the 6 years that I have participated , and I am daily talking to members here. I value this more than any financial reward that may come my way from my participation on these forums.

I am taking sides here but I think there should be away for those of us who work in this profession to have a heads up that a shit tsunami is headed our way via a thread on a forum we participate in.
I am here like most of you to relax and learn in a friendly manner, and prefer to deal client relationships off site.
Having to defend our pride and joy operations , like Dave is doing here is not a fun thing to do .

dwdmguy · Mar 3, 2010

I'm not here much but I'd like to offer the forum a "possible solution"

I commented on a very exact thread not too long ago, same vendor, different OP.
It was a nasty thead in whole.

I taught myself a very good lesson and that is that no matter what vendor, OP or the subject matter, it simply does not help. One way or another. The only thing it does is it allows our very good community, our good citizens, to get into a pissing debate with never, never an outcome for the good.
Now, here is what I would suggest to the community please:

I purchase a lot from Amazon.com and B&H. When I do, I always, if I'm not use to the product, read the reviews and the "Stars" rating system. B&H has an excellent track record and uses an outsource vendor to enlist their comments and ratings. Can't tell you how many times this has helped me made a decision one way or the other and thus far, I've never been wrong using it.

May I please suggest we have Rating and comment system for our Sponsors? Then any thread such as this can be Modded and the OP can be pointed to use the "Special Place" for such ratings. The bottom line is that I've learned threads like these go exactly NOwhere but brings out the worst in both sides in such a good community. Thinking of using "ABC Vendor"? Visit the Sponsor Comment/Rating site and read. Used "ABC Vendor" Please share your comments on that section. Thus the forums can be used by what I feel, is one of the best communities in the world.
FWIW.

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 3, 2010

Bob Carnie said:
I think there should be away for those of us who work in this profession to have a heads up that a shit tsunami is headed our way via a thread on a forum we participate in.

I think that's a good idea, and I'll advise the other moderators and Council members to help out in this endeavor as well. A quick response from a merchant or a vendor always makes things work out better for all concerned.

Chazzy · Mar 3, 2010

David A. Goldfarb said:
I think that's a good idea, and I'll advise the other moderators and Council members to help out in this endeavor as well. A quick response from a merchant or a vendor always makes things work out better for all concerned.

I alerted DR5 as soon as I saw the thread. I believe that a vendor should immediately be contacted in all such cases and given an opportunity to tell his side of the story. Otherwise there will be a danger that angry customers can take revenge on vendors with online lynchings. The vendor should always have the opportunity to have his say and to make amends, if possible. Henry Posner and Helen Oster are excellent examples of a positive attitude toward such opportunities.

MikeSeb · Mar 3, 2010

I am learning to my dismay just how thin-skinned people online can be. Evidently people just don't really like having their assumptions and beliefs challenged, however gently or vigorously. Too bad, that.

I didn't read anything disrespectful or aggressive in the original post about problems with DR5. Nor is DR5's owner prevented from having his say, which he has. What, really, was Mark (olwick, the original poster) to do? Sounds like he made reasonable efforts to find a resolution directly with the vendor. How many phone calls and emails are enough? He didn't slag the vendor in his post; he laid out his case in what seemed a rational manner.

I think David Goldfarb has it about right; let free discussion prevail, as long as it stays civil. Vigorous debate and the sanitizing light of day will prove self-correcting in the end.

mark · Mar 3, 2010

As a business owner I have discovered that there are two types of customers.

One likes your work, brings work back to you and shakes your hand when they leave. They talk to you when you mess up (and you will) and you go way out your way to make it right for that person. These are often the silent people who happily passes on your name to those who want or need your sevice. They seldom make public their experiences.

The other person is the guy/or gal who hands you crap and expects miracles, or you have an honest bad day and mess up (which will happen). These folks are the noisiest. They tell the world that you have ruined their vacations (not sure you photo guys get this comment but us boat shop owners do.). Guess what, you are not going to win by defending yourself. All you can do is offer to make it right. But you cannot make it right unless they talk to you. If they do not want to let that happen you put on your pith helmet duck and let it blow over.

A rating system for sponsors and advertisers is a bad idea.

DR5 offered to talk to the person and discuss the situation. When this happened the thread should have ended.

Rolleiflexible · Mar 3, 2010

dwdmguy said:
I purchase a lot from Amazon.com and B&H. When I do, I always, if I'm not use to the product, read the reviews and the "Stars" rating system. B&H has an excellent track record and uses an outsource vendor to enlist their comments and ratings. Can't tell you how many times this has helped me made a decision one way or the other and thus far, I've never been wrong using it.

Negative reviews generally do not
stay posted to B+H's ratings pages.
(Write one and see what happens.)

dr5chrome · Mar 5, 2010

I would thank the several the supported us in this thread.. thanks.

Yes, Bob; I know full well that "NO ONE" really understands the commitment but another lab owner. Its not like the old days. Maybe Ill have to come see you place one day...

Marks post about customers is spot-on. This customer has not called us, nor do I think he care's to. His care was to post on this forum 1st. There was no attempt made by this person to contact us about his problem.

Regards.

dr5.com

Bob Carnie said:
Like many if not all here , I am deeply commited to photography, live ,breath it when my day job is over. (in my case printing)

I photograph, process my film and print, and I participate here in a friendly manner. I do enjoy learning new things, *thanks Ralph L* and though I have been in the buisness since 76 , I find the depth of knowledge here and on LLF mindbending and worth being a part of.

I take pride in my work at Elevator , but I can assure you I do make mistakes with customers every now and then.
Who has not gone to their favorite restaurant, and walked away unsatisfied now and then.

Like Dave at DR5 , I have had people attack my lab on a forum, without my knowledge and I can assure you it is very upsetting and extremely time consuming to try to put out the fire , usually during working hours when I should be printing , I do feel compelled to defend myself or staff, it's impossible not to react, and in the moment may go overboard with my response.
Running a lab is like a good restaurant, a very full day with lots of problems coming at you from various points, and like most of you here , I find opening up APUG and LLF fun and relaxing where I can ask questions and answer if I have them about the one thing in my life (other than Laura and the dogs) that I love and cherish.

I cannot speak directly for Dave , but I will try and he can correct me if he wants

I and others(like Dave) in photography related shops are here at APUG are here to participate in the forums to learn and help newbies in a craft that we love and not to mine the thousands of photographers for potential clients or users of our services. Elevator btw has a digital at its end and not very appropriate for APUG.
I have met many friends here who have helped me over the 6 years that I have participated , and I am daily talking to members here. I value this more than any financial reward that may come my way from my participation on these forums.

I am taking sides here but I think there should be away for those of us who work in this profession to have a heads up that a shit tsunami is headed our way via a thread on a forum we participate in.
I am here like most of you to relax and learn in a friendly manner, and prefer to deal client relationships off site.
Having to defend our pride and joy operations , like Dave is doing here is not a fun thing to do .

Mahler_one · Mar 5, 2010

And it was truly an "on-line lynching"....the criticism was out there hours before you had the chance to defend yourself.

mikebarger · Mar 5, 2010

Don't know, looks like the OP made some effort to contact you.

I don't have a dog in the fight, and I would have tried to contact you again after seeing the film if I wasn't happy, but that's me not the OP.

I think he was fair in pointing out he knew a lot of people had good luck with Dr.5, it was just he personally had not had a good customer experience.

And, unlike Simon who is very professional in his responses, your here we go again statement made me wonder how many customer service issues you've had considering your tone. It also seems like you have spent a fair amount of energy complaining about it.

Again, I'm not interested in positives so makes me zero difference, and it sounds like you have many happy customers. No business is going to have 100% of their customers leaving feeling great. It's how the business responds that can say a lot.

so I e-mailed them back to let them know that I reenabled it and to ship it.
After a few days I finally used the alternate mail address on their site
I got a somewhat nasty e-mail from David, the owner, telling me that I needed to "fix" my e-mail.
Actually I did. I sent them multiple mails.
I agree - that's why I called too, but got voice mail. I left my call back number as well (plus it was on my order form).

No response.

SilverGlow · Mar 5, 2010

A wise businessman would've responded to this thread in such a way as to not allow it to get so long and make him and his company look so bad. A wise businesman would've used this thread as an opportunity to build up his brand, his offerings, himself and his company too, but no, that didn't happen, did it?

DR5 is not a very good business man. The email problem is IN FACT on his side....his server needs to be set up to ascertain spam versus real email better. Also DR5 could have used this issue to turn things around and make for great Public Relations but instead, he chose to be "right" instead of bring goodwill and put a good face on his operation. Judging from his very poor communications, and lack of business acumen I'll not ever use DR5...lousy attitude and stupid business practices...I too am a business owner and I would've used this "dark cloud" to show a very awesome silver lining....DR5 chose to be stupid about handling this...sad.

The issue is not whether the customer was right or wrong...the prime directive for all business should be: Good face, bring in more business, put out high quality, get rich...NOT demand to be "right".

DR5, you brought this on to yourself...fear Google! This is my opinion.

My experience with DR5

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