Multigrade Film

Nicholas Lindan · Dec 9, 2023

Multigrade paper is a mix of a blue sensitive emulsion and a blue & green sensitive emulsion.

So why not a multigrade film? Blue sensitive films are used for copy work and orthochromatic films are part of the new retro sensibility. Mix the two emulsions together and bingo, MG film.

You could have a new version of the Zone system using blue/green filtration rather than development to control contrast. Great for applying the ZS to 120 & 35mm where you can't separate frames for individual development.

On the downside you would have to resign yourself to white skies in your pictures. And women wearing red lipstick are going to look a bit weird.

Rudeofus · Dec 9, 2023

Nicholas Lindan said:
You could have a new version of the Zone system using blue/green filtration rather than development to control contrast. Great for applying the ZS to 120 & 35mm where you can't separate frames for individual development.

Let's assume for a second, that the world around us was black, gray and white, and that color filters would indeed adjust contrast like they do with printing paper: you'd be forced to develop film to completion, which would do away with all these special developers for sharpness or low grain. You'd also lose speed, since only one color channel contributes to exposure.

You'd gain the advantage of setting film contrast per frame, though.

DREW WILEY · Dec 9, 2023

And right down the drain would go all your ordinary selective controls using contrast filters. You'd be bouncing back and forth between a blue sensitive film and an ortho one, with no pan or selective pan option. But good luck trying to make a film like that anyway. You might be the only user. More like the Twilight Zone option; weird.

ic-racer · Dec 9, 2023

Most all films are already 'multigrade.'

MurrayMinchin · Dec 9, 2023

ic-racer said:
Most all films are already 'multigrade.'
View attachment 356194

Yup, that and sheet film means each image gets exactly what it needs.

RalphLambrecht · Dec 9, 2023

Nicholas Lindan said:
Multigrade paper is a mix of a blue sensitive emulsion and a blue & green sensitive emulsion.

So why not a multigrade film? Blue sensitive films are used for copy work and orthochromatic films are part of the new retro sensibility. Mix the two emulsions together and bingo, MG film.

You could have a new version of the Zone system using blue/green filtration rather than development to control contrast. Great for applying the ZS to 120 & 35mm where you can't separate frames for individual development.

On the downside you would have to resign yourself to white skies in your pictures. And women wearing red lipstick are going to look a bit weird.

pretty radical but interesting thinking. I'd be worried about a lot of trial and error to get the exposure right and what role does development play with such films?

Nicholas Lindan · Dec 9, 2023

ic-racer said:
Most all films are already 'multigrade.'

But not on a frame-by-frame basis for a roll of 35mm or 120.

Vaughn · Dec 9, 2023

Alas, the world is in color.

However I am about to market a new type of contrast filters for film cameras. Based on the property of color filters lightening their own color, and darken the opposite color, I have developed a set of black and white filters. The black filters will lighten the blacks and darken the whites = lower contrast. The white filters lighten the whites and darken the blacks -- increasing contrast.

Only a dollar two-fifty per filter.

Nicholas Lindan · Dec 9, 2023

RalphLambrecht said:
pretty radical but interesting thinking. I'd be worried about a lot of trial and error to get the exposure right and what role does development play with such films?

It's been a very, very long time since I was called a radical. These days, at best a stick-in-the-mud, often a reactionary-tool-of-the-ruling-class.

The proposal somewhat in jest.

I suppose the filters would be made as are the filters for MG printing - with all the grades having the same sensitivity for a Zone V exposure.

And as Rudeofus & Vaughn point out things get complicated with colored subjects like sky, clothing, colored flowers (flowers of color?).

DREW WILEY · Dec 10, 2023

The easiest method is just to leave the lens cap on each time you trip the shutter. All the frames will be consistent.

bernard_L · Dec 11, 2023

ic-racer said:
Most all films are already 'multigrade.'
View attachment 356194

Extremely instructive chart. (even with no axis scales).
Are these yours? if yes, kudos.
Irrespective, are there more of these where they came from? Even isolated plots (as opposed to this "full" matrix) would be useful.

Nicholas Lindan · Dec 11, 2023

bernard_L said:
Extremely instructive chart. (even with no axis scales).
... are there more of these where they came from?

https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/default/files/files/resources/f4016_TMax_100.pdf

See pages 8-9. Available for other Kodak films. I imagine Ilford has something similar, but I confess to only using their paper. I don't know the source of Mr. Racer's curves.

bernard_L · Dec 11, 2023

@Nicholas Lindan. Thank you. And, I should take a moment to copy-paste curves from the fotoimport.no pages and build up a nice matrix for at-a-glance comparison; but just one dev time for each.

bernard_L · Dec 11, 2023

Nicholas Lindan said:
Multigrade paper is a mix of a blue sensitive emulsion and a blue & green sensitive emulsion.

So why not a multigrade film?

You dreamed of it; Eastman Kodak made it; although not as you thought. KODAK 4125 Professional Copy Film (discontinued).

https://125px.com/docs/film/kodak/f17-Copy.pdf

With most black-and-white films, the contrast of negatives is controlled by development. However, with KODAK Professional Copy Film, contrast in the copy negative is controlled by both exposure and development. Development controls the contrast of the midtone and shadow regions of the negative (and to a slight extent, the highlight region), while exposure primarily controls the contrast of the highlight. For a given development condition, as the exposure increases, highlight density increases at a faster rate than shadow density, increasing the overall contrast.
Adjust both the exposure and development times to meet the contrast requirements for a particular application. To
adjust overall contrast, change either the development time or the exposure. You’ll obtain the best tonal rendition when you standardize the process (development time) to give proper contrast to the shadow and midtone areas, and place the highlights by varying exposure.

Vaughn · Dec 11, 2023

I still use Kodak Professional Copy Film (as long as my supply lasts) -- great for low contrast scenes where I need to build up the contrast. I need to be careful with it as it can build contrast in a way that is not 'true' to the light I am seeing.

For example -- I like this image but it was nothing like the light that I saw and experienced...which is neither good or bad, I just have to be aware of it. There was a three stop range of light measured.

Many Pools, Zion National Park
8x10 Kodak Pro Copy Film at ASA 25
f64 at 20 seconds
Carbon Print

so so reproduction of the print (a bit of glare off the paper surface, but close)

koraks · Dec 11, 2023

Vaughn said:
I like this image but

I really like it, and no 'but'!

grain elevator · Dec 11, 2023

Things in the world have colors, do you want these to appear at different contrasts? It's an old problem (rather than s solution for a no-existent problem) for anyone who has tried making b&w prints from color negs on mg paper or who has used mg paper for in-camera negatives.

Doremus Scudder · Dec 11, 2023

Those making paper negatives with VC paper are already dealing with this.

Multigrade Film

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