MSDS's Are Not Accurate

I wish to clarify the use of MSDS's which I constantly see being misinterpreted on the web. The main problem with MSDS's is that they do not accurately describe what CONSTITUTES a particular product. They may tell you what was used to MAKE a product but this is not necessarily the same thing. Take a well worn example, that of Agfa's Rodinal. The MSDS says that it contains paraminophenol, potassium sulfite, potassium bromide, and potassium hydroxide. Now this is neither what the bottle actually contains nor what Agfa mixes together to make it. It is here that the information in the MSDS lets us down. The only chemical described correctly is the potassium bromide. It is used to make the product and is actually present in the bottle. We can therefore remove it from further discussion. Potassium sulfite is also present in the product but we have no way of knowing whether it was there initially or whether it is produced by the reaction of potassium metabisulfite and potassium hydroxide. There are practical and economic reasons to believe the latter is correct. (This supposition is based on additional information not contained in the MSDS.) Neither potassium hydroxide nor paraminophenol are present in the bottle although they are used to make the developer. They react to form a new compound. So of the four chemicals mentioned in the MSDS only one is described correctly.

My point is this -- an MSDS may not be telling the whole story as to what constitutes a certain product nor how to make a product. Unless you have some chemical training or are willing to do a lot of additional work you are not going to get much in the way useful information.

They are not intended to be recipes, but rather documents that described hazards, ways to deal with exposure, containment, etc. of chemicals.

- Randy

People in my profession encounter chemicals every day - at fires, hazardous material incidents, and medical emergencies - and few of us are trained chemists. MSDS's are invaluable to us. They give us a snapshot of whether the most dangerous hazard is fire, health, or reactivity, what personal protective equipment we need, and what emergency treatment an exposed person needs. The actual chemicals in the substance are often of secondary importance to us.

Like Randy says, their purpose is to list the hazards associated with the chemicals in a product, so the chemicals will be listed and the hazards noted. MSDS stands for Material Safety Data Sheet.

-Neil

If a chemical is below a certain concentration, and considered to be non-hazardous or low in hazard, then at that low level, it does not need to be mentioned.

In addition, proprietary components can be omitted under some circumstances or just noted as a generalization such as "contains a proprietary thio ether".

PE

My point, which I will state again, is that they are not very helpful if they do not tell you what is actually in the product. If you have been exposed to chemical C (to which you are allergic) it is not helpful to tell you that the product was made from chemicals A and B UNLESS you are aware that A plus B produces C.

To cite another example, the MSDS for Ethol UFG once said it contained quinone and hydrochloric acid. The can contained neither but did contain chlorohydroquinone which is formed by the reaction of quinone with hydrochloric acid. Not much help giving you false information that you should be treating an acid spill.

MSDS sheets are useful to the people they were designed for, and designed to take the worse case secenrio if a spill should occur, they are not designed to be a list of ingrediants for making the product they are associated with, if two products are listed that are not actually in the bottle because combining them created another product, then if there is a spill or an accident, the responders are to treat it as a spill of the third product, knowing that it was created by the combination of the other two materials, to the general public not trained in hazadous chemicals, normally they have very little use.

Satinsnow said:

MSDS sheets are useful to the people they were designed for, and designed to take the worse case secenrio if a spill should occur, they are not designed to be a list of ingrediants for making the product they are associated with, if two products are listed that are not actually in the bottle because combining them created another product, then if there is a spill or an accident, the responders are to treat it as a spill of the third product, knowing that it was created by the combination of the other two materials, to the general public not trained in hazadous chemicals, normally they have very little use.

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I have personally dealt with hazmat people and they are not trained as chemists. I'm trying to be polite here. How are they to know from the MSDS that A plus B produces C and that C is what is dangerous. Or perhaps the flip side -- A and B are dangerous and the reaction product is harmless. For example, an MSDS for table salt could say it contained sodium hydroxide and hydrochloric acid.

Gerald Koch said:

I have personally dealt with hazmat people and they are not trained as chemists. I'm trying to be polite here. How are they to know from the MSDS that A plus B produces C and that C is what is dangerous. Or perhaps the flip side -- A and B are dangerous and the reaction product is harmless. For example, an MSDS for table salt could say it contained sodium hydroxide and hydrochloric acid.

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Hey Gerald, be polite or not, I am passing on the information from a Person I know that is a good friend and was the mater chemist for Cargill, and now owns his own company dealing in chemicals and sprays that contain proprietory chemicals,, I am not a chemist and don't claim to be, but in another post, you had a fireman, who will most likly be the first responder in a situation tell you, they are helpful to them, in most instances I have seen in chemical spills, the first responders go, then they call the experts if it is out of their are of expertice, if your unhappy with the current MSDS information, perhaps you should contact the EPA, they are the agency in charge of how these are put together.

Have a great day

Dave

From a different perspective, but which a lot of off handed mentioned, the lists of hazards are most often on these sheets the worst case scenerio. Not all are and are there for very good reasons. Too many times lay people (not trained in chemistry) will take that worst case scenerio and make it out to be the next Hiroshima in impact. Not all people will react the same way to some of the substances. Some may be highly effected, while others show no problems what so ever. It is better to know that there is a hazard that could exist, and in the case of Fire professionsals this is all important. Most the times for the small minute amounts we use we are not at a great hazard. I will say this also, read about what form the chemical is hazardous as. Too many here figure it is hazardous no matter what. Oft times that is in the powdered form. Know how it is absorbed into the body, if at all. Do NOt jump to conclusions without reading exactly what constitutes the hazard. Be informed not paranoid.

In the case of Rodinal, when it is made by the usual recipe, it could be said to contain sodium or potassium chloride as well. I think there are always problems with trying to ascertain what went into a solution by chemical analysis. There may be, and probably usually are, several combinations of ingredients that could have produced the type and concentration of ions in the final solution. Sometimes the solution can act as if it contained each of the original ingredients as well as each compound that might be formed by permutations and combinations of the original ingredients. If I mix water, potassium hydroxide, p-aminophenol, potassium chloride, and potassium sulfite in the right proportions, can I tell by analysis that I did not mix p-aminophenol.HCl, potassium metabisulfite, potassium hydroxide or vice versa? If the solution can react as if it contained either group of chemicals, it should be treated for safety's sake as if they all were present. The purpose of the MSDS is not to give us a recipe but to let us know what might happen if we let the product in question come in contact with our skin, clothing, other chemicals, or our innards.

gainer said:

The purpose of the MSDS is not to give us a recipe but to let us know what might happen if we let the product in question come in contact with our skin, clothing, other chemicals, or our innards.

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Which was my main point. Thanks for getting us back on track. For a document that can be so very important it should be as accurate as possilble.

However, it is fun to see what we can deduce from an MSDS.

If you are allergic to quinone, it doesn't matter if it is the freebase or the hcl salt, you will get the same allergic reaction. MSDS does not make everyone happy, but having one is better than nothing. If you wanted to be thorough you could probably print a 1,000 page text about 'whats in Ethol EFG'.

Gerald Koch said:

My point, which I will state again, is that they are not very helpful if they do not tell you what is actually in the product. If you have been exposed to chemical C (to which you are allergic) it is not helpful to tell you that the product was made from chemicals A and B UNLESS you are aware that A plus B produces C.

To cite another example, the MSDS for Ethol UFG once said it contained quinone and hydrochloric acid. The can contained neither but did contain chlorohydroquinone which is formed by the reaction of quinone with hydrochloric acid. Not much help giving you false information that you should be treating an acid spill.

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What is formed is not a HCl salt but chlorohydroquinone which is something entirely different. But this is beside the point.

My pupose is giving the second example was to point up the problem with the MSDS giving the impression that a can of Ethol UFG somehow contained hydrochloric acid. This, of course, is nonsense.

If you want accuracy as to what is in the compound, you should request a "certificate of analysis", not MSDS. As previously stated, the purpose of an MSDS is to aid users in determining how to contain a spill, if it's bad that nitric acid mixed with sulfuric acid (it is, btw), whether to puke it back up or wash it through, which PPE (personal protective equipment) to wear - ie. gloves, mask, etc...