MSA July/August 2015 - "Suggest"

Sunbsribed or not? Easy.

Just my 2 cents of Pacific Pesos thrown in.

One of the reasons I subscribed to APUG was precisely so that I could post images in the galleries, one of them being the MSA one.

Nothing wrong with asking that image posting is reserved to subscribers, IMHO.

Sites like this don't survive out of thin air or advertising income, as much as it might surprise anyone thinking Sean and APUG are making a fortune out of Kodak film advertising! (irony intentional! )

So, how to get around this?

I agree with Barbara Ann that posting twice for subscribers is a pain-in-the-you-know-what.
But of course, those who are not subscribers can only post in the thread. And I'm willing to help out with my posts here as well, even though it makes it more work.

I'm willing to follow with Bill Burk in offering a subscription to a winner.
Just don't expect it to be a 2 year one with extras on: it'll be a minimal subscription so the person in question can post a theme and follow it up for at least a few months.
I do believe the minimal subscription is 6months, is it not?

Fine with me, perhaps Bill and I and anyone else thinking of helping out this way can alternate.
That way it won't be a major hassle for anyone.

In fact, it could be an effective attraction for those who are not subscribers: show us your best work and if you win, you get to post for free in the public galleries!

I do like APUG too much to see it disappear for lack of subscribers, and things aren't going to get any better as time goes by, that's for sure.
So all the help and ideas we can come up with are worth of consideration.

Anyways, like I said: just my 2 cents worth.

Subscriber vs. non-subscriber

Here's how I see it:
My mother used to say "You get what you pay for." I belong to several sites and if I want to "play" on them
I have to subscribe or become a paying member. If non-subscribers are privy to many aspects of APUG why would
anyone want to pay? And that my friends, would be the end of APUG as we know it.
Anyone interested is film photography spends a lot of money on supplies. If they can afford to work with film,
the nominal fee for APUG should not be a problem. (I am on a fixed income and can manage easily.) It shouldn't
be necessary for some good hearted souls to offer to subsidize others.
I think it's unfair to expect some of us to pay while others just waltz in, take advantage of the site and don't
support it monetarily.
I had assumed letting non-subscribers a "peek" at the site was to let them decide whether to plunk down the
fee to join. I don't think it was ever meant to let non-subscribers access to the same functions as subscribers
enjoy (and pay for.)

peter k. said:

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Thanks Peter - I like it.

Do you have a title?

Let it Go...

Or is it "Losing your marbles"?

(I told myself not to discuss this anymore, but I feel I have to, since I'm afraid we're not keeping the MSA as open and simple as it could be. I care a lot about APUG and the MSA is a great feature of APUG. So apologize my ranting. I'm not trying to be smart and don't want to hurt any feelings.)

There seems to be genuine concern about needing subscribers to keep APUG alive. That's a positive thing in itself. However, like David said before (on behalf of Sean) that shouldn't be an "issue/factor" (hope that is the right word for it) for deciding on how to run the MSA.

This is what David (= moderator) said earlier in a group PM about this concerning the MSA:

Originally Posted by David A. Goldfarb
I agree that everyone has the best of intentions (...) expressing enthusiasm for APUG, as others sometimes do, by trying to encourage people to subscribe, but that doesn't play so well with everyone, and that's not how Sean would handle it himself. Better to keep the discussion positive, and a certain percentage will subscribe.

Member organized functions are not subscriber-only content per APUG policy, though the galleries are. If you can make it work without requiring participation in the gallery, that's fine by us. In theory, some members could decide to make a member organized function subscriber-only as a rule for that function or exchange, but I don't think we've had any like that.

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Personally I don't care about money itself and it is certainly well worth it to be a subscriber and yes: Sean needs money to pay for servers, etc. That's all true.
But as David (on behalf of Sean) said: that shouldn't be an argument here for making decisions about the guidelines.
And having people to accept a donated subscription in order to be able to win and host the next MSA, might not feel right and "doesn't play so well with everyone" (at least not with me). I fear it makes things a bit complicated too.
There are very good reasons why a person can't or won't subscribe and don't want to take charity, but still would like to be able to participate (and win) the MSA.

So how about this as a compromise: I'll make an extra donation of $60 right now to APUG (since I can spare this), what is good for 5 extra persons subscribing for 6 months. This way we are upfront good for the next five potential winners that aren't subscribers yet - if that happens at all. As some of you stated before, all (recent) winners were already subscribers, so the $60 will be good for let's say at least two or three years minimum (= 12 or 18 MSA's). This way APUG isn't missing any money so we all win: Sean get's some extra support upfront, anyone can participate without issues and we can get back to the MSA itself without worrying about subscriptions.

About uploading: it isn't that difficult to upload to both - almost anyone has in the past. But if you only want to upload once, do it into the thread for easy viewing by everyone. It's even a lot easier than into the gallery. Some expressed difficulties with uploading, but these persons can get personal support & training to learn this. And all non-subscribers can view the thread also, follow the MSA developing and get enthusiastic all by themselves, and as David said: "a certain percentage will subscribe".

How about that?

Bert from Holland

Sorry, Bert. but if uploading to the thread becomes a requirement to participate in MSA, I am out.
I have received a generous offer from another member to help me "learn" the process but I believe
firmly in the KISS principle and when faced with two alternatives, one complicated and one simple,
I will opt for the simple one. Forced to go through the contortions of uploading to the thread would
take all the enjoyment out of the MSA for me. I have enough grief in my life and would not be willing
to add more.
Best Regards,
barbara ann

barbara ann,

I also hope to keep it simple. So I think it's perfectly OK to upload to the MSA gallery. Members who participate won't be able to see your contributions but that's not critical to playing along. Members can upload to the thread (where you can see their contributions).

The only problem I'm thinking of solving is that when the winner goes to perform their solemn duty to review all of the following MSA entries, they would need a subscriber's status to be able to see MSA gallery contributions like yours. They need that subscribership during the next MSA that they are responsible to judge.

That's where the pledge system kicks in... if they're not a subscriber they "automatically" become subscriber for 6 months (I don't even think we should ask, it's not a prize it's not a charity. It's just insurance). That subscription would allow the winner to judge the next MSA. It's up to them if they want to continue as a subscriber after they realize the gallery and other good subscriber features are worth it.

Bert and I are thinking of clever ways to ensure that the winner is not "forced" to subscribe. Being forced to subscribe would smack a little bit like having to pay to enter a contest.

Hi Barbara Ann and Bill,
I understand your sentiment and I hope that maybe this is the compromise we're all looking for and will accommodate as many of us as possible?

"All members and subscribers are welcome to participate in the MSA and will be judged equally, wether they subscribe to APUG or not. Multiple entries are allowed, but do remember that all photographs must be made analogue and within the right time frame for the ongoing MSA.

To enter the ongoing MSA you'll have to post your photograph either in the MSA Gallery or in the MSA thread itself before the announced deadline. Remember: you don't have to subscribe to APUG for being able to participate in the MSA, but only subscribers can view and upload to any of the galleries.

Subscribers are allowed to only post their photograph in the MSA Gallery, but it is encouraged to post your photograph both in the gallery and the MSA thread itself. We'd like to share the entries in the MSA with all subscribers, members and visitors of APUG to promote the MSA (and only subscribers can view any of the galleries).

If the winning photograph was only uploaded to the MSA Gallery, then this photograph will still be uploaded to the thread itself (by the judge, the winner, the moderator or an assisting subscriber), so everyone can see and enjoy the winning image."

I hope this is to your satisfaction as well? And if I missed something, please let me know.
Thanks,
Bert from Holland

TheToadMen said:

Since only subscribers are allowed to post their photograph in the MSA Gallery, it is encouraged to post your photograph both in the gallery and the MSA thread itself.

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I reworded this regarding upload to MSA Gallery, there might be a subscriber out there who has a little trouble uploading to galleries.

How do we move this out of committee and into some kind of action. It's already July 10th and 'we're losing light'

OptiKen said:

How do we move this out of committee and into some kind of action. It's already July 10th and 'we're losing light'

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Shoot away.

However we handle it, the issue of how to handle the situation if the "winner" isn't a subscriber won't become time critical until the end of August, and maybe not even then.

And there is already at least one photo in the MSA gallery.

I would say that there is almost complete consensus that we want non-subscribers to be able to be "winners". We are just struggling with ways to make the full benefit of "winning" available to them. On an ad hoc basis, there have been a couple of offers to donate subscriptions, so the winner of the current session will most likely be covered, if they are willing to accept that generosity.

I'd like to be able to figure a way to bring I.G.I. back onside, but not yet being able to do that shouldn't stop the MSA from going ahead.

"Can it be that it was all so simple then
Or has time rewritten every line..." - The Way We Were

I remember when I first discovered APUG and subsequently the Monthly Shooting Assignment sub forum. It was oh-so-simple then. You took the topic and challenged yourself to come up with an appropriate image. When/if you captured something you felt worthwhile, you simply clicked on "Upload", typed in your info, selected MSA, clicked upload again and you were DONE! You could check back and see all the entries, side-by-side in the MSA Gallery. Eazy peazy as the kids say.
Ah, but things never stay the same, do they. For some unfathomable reason, folks started opting for the more onerous upload to the MSA thread which had previously been home to rules and comments from members. Now, in addition to spending more precious time getting your photo into the thread, folks had to scroll through the many member comments to "find" the entries.
No one so far has advance a cogent, logical reason as to why this more complicated process offers any advantage.
But as Pogo once profoundly stated "We have met the enemy and he is us."
Now we find ourselves embroiled in a gallery vs. thread and subscriber vs. non subscriber debate. How sad is that.
We are feverishly trying to "fix" something that wasn't broken in the first place!
I also cannot fathom why in the world a non-subscriber would expect to have all the rights and privileges of someone
who paid to subscribe. I've always known I couldn't have everything that money can buy if I didn't have the money to buy it.
But obviously I'm outnumbered on that score.
I will sit back and wait for the dust to settle and see how the changes affect me. Then I'll make the choice of whether to stay or go.
I sincerely hope I will be able to stay as MSA has been a wonderful addition to my life as I age. (82 in the fall, folks!)
Be Well,
barbara ann

barbara ann said:

"Can it be that it was all so simple then
Or has time rewritten every line..." - The Way We Were
(...)
Ah, but things never stay the same, do they. For some unfathomable reason, folks started opting for the more onerous upload to the MSA thread which had previously been home to rules and comments from members. Now, in addition to spending more precious time getting your photo into the thread, folks had to scroll through the many member comments to "find" the entries.
No one so far has advance a cogent, logical reason as to why this more complicated process offers any advantage.

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Hello Barbara Ann,
Keeping you in the MSA (and still having fun at the same tine) is very important to me - and I know to others as well.

And you made a good point. I'm not trying to justify myself, nor am I trying to convince you or anything, but maybe I can give you some insight into the foolish thinking of a youngster like me (I'm only 48). To me the "many member comments" are as important as the photographs itself. I love APUG for being able to view many great photographs AND learn from others by reading their comments, discussions, motives, experiences, etc. This goes for the MSA as well. Also I "grew up" on APUG through the threads, not the galleries.
And I'm probably on an impossible mission (in live as well) always trying to make things better for everyone so all can participate and enjoy themselves.

But you're probably right. I've got the same feeling that we're trying to fix that what wasn't broken in the first place.

So please forgive us for being this fussy about clarifying guidelines and please keep shooting and posting to the MSA Gallery.

Note to us all: As they say, "wisdom comes with age", so let's head the words of Barbara Ann and get back to shooting and discussing photographs on these great MSA's!!

Bill Burk said:

I reworded this regarding upload to MSA Gallery, there might be a subscriber out there who has a little trouble uploading to galleries.

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Thank you Bill for the correction. So, heading the words of Barbara Ann, I'm proposing we settle this discussion for now with this clarification to the guidelines, so nothing has to really change for Barbara Ann, I.G.I. or anyone else. The keywords are: "post your photograph either in the MSA Gallery or in the MSA thread itself" so nothing will change for that matter.

The corrected addition to the guidelines will be:

"All members and subscribers are welcome to participate in the MSA and will be judged equally, wether they subscribe to APUG or not. Multiple entries are allowed, but do remember that all photographs must be made analogue and within the right time frame for the ongoing MSA.

To enter the ongoing MSA you'll have to post your photograph either in the MSA Gallery or in the MSA thread itself before the announced deadline. Remember: you don't have to subscribe to APUG for being able to participate in the MSA, but only subscribers can view and upload to any of the galleries.

Since only subscribers are allowed to post their photograph in the MSA Gallery, it is encouraged to post your photograph both in the MSA Gallery and the MSA thread itself (not an obligation though). We'd like to share the entries in the MSA with all subscribers, members and visitors of APUG to promote the MSA (and only subscribers can view any of the galleries).

If the winning photograph was only uploaded to the MSA Gallery, then this photograph will still be uploaded to the thread itself (by the judge, the winner, the moderator or an assisting subscriber), so everyone can see and enjoy the winning image."

And if a non-subscribing member might win in the future, then we'll cross that bridge when it happens. There are enough members willing to support a membership payment or whatever. So we don't have to legalize that potential situation now as well.

Thanks,
Bert from Holland

@TheToadMen Yes! I "Suggest" we all get back to interpreting an intriguing topic and worry about the "what ifs" later...

barbara ann said:

@TheToadMen Yes! I "Suggest" we all get back to interpreting an intriguing topic and worry about the "what ifs" later...

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barbara ann said:

I've always known I couldn't have everything that money can buy if I didn't have the money to buy it.

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That's a great signature line...



Ken

Ken Nadvornick said:

That's a great signature line...



Ken

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The corollary, of course, is "Money can't buy me love" !

May I suggest a holiday?

Hope you stay, Barbara Ann. It's always great to see your work and how you interpret the various themes.

Anyways, in the spirit of sharing: here is my first (there will be more!) entry on this theme.
It's in the gallery and hopefully by posting it here it'll encourage others to participate as well. subscribers or not.
The title is: "May I suggest a holiday?" Totally tongue in cheek, I hope you'll pardon me.

Was at the rock pool taking photos of the surfers at North Narrabeen beach in Sydney when all of a sudden a pod of dolphins decided to join them! Took lots of shots, of course. Used a monopod.
Then this one jumped right in front of me, less than 70' away!
Just had the time to twitch the camera and take a shot of its second jump!

Pity APUG uses small images: this thing looks magnificent at larger sizes.
Sheer luck it came out so good!
Given theme is 'Suggest', I'd like to suggest a visit to this magic place!
Gear: Nikon F6, Sigma ApoMacroDGHSM 180/3.5, Manfrotto monpod.
Film: Provia 100 over-exposed at ISO 64 and developed -1 in std E6, scan from slide strip.
Have fun and enjoy the theme, folks! I certainly did!

nsouto said:

The title is: "May I suggest a holiday?"
(...)
Have fun and enjoy the theme, folks! I certainly did!

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Wow, that must have been a thrill when the dolphin came so close and a second thrill when you saw the slide and realized you did get it right in this shot! Congratulations: a great opening of the show.

I'm still thinking about what I'm gonna suggest. Don't know yet for sure, but a holiday is off the list

I suggest you to color your life ...



---
Brnica ETRSi - Zenzanon PE 75mm f/2.8 - exp. Fuji Superia Xtra400 @ISO200

Here is my contribution for the MSA "Suggest", (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Thanks macfred and Bertus.