MSA July/August 2015 - "Suggest"

REVISED

It seems that it is my turn again to choose the topic.

I was thinking that the last two topics tended more to the literal and concrete part of the spectrum.

And I was reading a bit about William Mortensen.

And I thought blansky's thread about manipulation brought out some interesting discussions.

So this next (bi)Monthly Shooting Assignment has a theme of "Suggest".

The "rules" can be found generally in the new Guidelines: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Entries are limited to shots taken between July 1, 2015 and August 31, 2015. Please limit entries (one or more) to those "captured using means consistent with the principles of APUG.

Interpret the theme in whatever way you deem best. Creativity will be appreciated.

And be sure to have fun!

PS If you to want to choose a theme and judge entries, you should note that you need to be a subscriber in order to be eligible for that - see the revised guidelines and the post below.

It took me a while to find it again. I'm glad I did, I like the drawing.
Your topic made me think of this.

Matt-the-subscribing-judge-of-this-MSA said:

I was thinking that the last two topics tended more to the literal and concrete part of the spectrum.
And I was reading a bit about William Mortensen.
And I thought blansky's thread about manipulation brought out some interesting discussions.
So this next (bi)Monthly Shooting Assignment has a theme of "Suggest".

Click to expand...

"Suggest": what a wonderful theme. This must lead to a wide range of interesting photographs.

NedL said:

It took me a while to find it again. I'm glad I did, I like the drawing.
Your topic made me think of this.

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Nice interpretation - and I love making Haiku.

Love this theme Matt - not sure I'll be able to contribute as I'll be busy with the semester winding down, but I'll definitely be interested in seeing what people come up with!

Hmmm ... "Suggest"

3rd person present:
past tense: suggested; past participle: suggested; put forward for consideration.
synonyms: propose,... recommend, ... urge, ... encourage

cause one to think that (something) exists or is the case.

synonyms: indicate, lead to the belief, ... demonstrate, show; hint, insinuate, imply, intimate, indicate;

state or express indirectly (of an idea) come into one's mind.

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Ah ha... at last .. go shoot and stop thinking ..

Ok.. on the old MSA thread..
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
that just completed, was brought up about the point of being a subscriber today.

I guess we need clarity before continuing... I'm a newbie on this thread, and not a subscriber.. have not given it much thought.. and may in the future do so, but if I'm not wanted here to participate.. I'm OK with that.

Didn't think one had to be a subscriber to ask or participate with APUG.. that one just was basically shooting film, but there are different groups and perspectives of that particular group.

Ok, so what.. no big deal .. but Matt.. and all the other old time members and participators of this group from way back.. why don't you talk about it via PM's and declare one way or the other for this one!

Background...

And I will consider subscriber status as a "plus" when evaluating entries.

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This sounds interesting.

I would like to try this.

Time to load a few more holders.

If a decision is made one way or another regarding members vs. subscribers for the MSA, I'm happy to abide by the decision. It's not a matter of people being not WANTED... everyone is wanted, and their participation welcome and encouraged. That said, I do think it is fair that certain APUG activities be limited to subscribers, as benefits of subscription. Enough said on a contentious topic. Let's go to the cameras and make more images.

peter k. said:

Ok.. on the old MSA thread..
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
that just completed, was brought up about the point of being a subscriber today.

I guess we need clarity before continuing... I'm a newbie on this thread, and not a subscriber.. have not given it much thought.. and may in the future do so, but if I'm not wanted here to participate.. I'm OK with that.

Didn't think one had to be a subscriber to ask or participate with APUG.. that one just was basically shooting film, but there are different groups and perspectives of that particular group.

Ok, so what.. no big deal .. but Matt.. and all the other old time members and participators of this group from way back.. why don't you talk about it via PM's and declare one way or the other for this one!

Background...

Click to expand...

I enjoy all of the submissions for the MSA. It is OK for different people to be in different places. Please make an image and post something here.

I think I've collected enough information and points of view to suggest a resolution to the issues here. There isn't total consensus, but there is a fairly high level of consensus among the people who have contributed. So I am going to step forward and sort of “impose” a resolution, with the clear understanding that if this doesn’t work for anyone who cares a lot about it, it won’t fly.

First, a couple of things that there is a high level of consensus about:

1) the MSA has been functioning well as a casual, fun oriented photographic activity where all APUG members are welcome to participate. There is a great amount of desire that it continues to do so;
2) there is no desire to make the MSA "subscriber-only";
3) there is no desire to make the "prize" for winning any more (or any less) than it is right now;
4) the existing MSA gallery is valuable - it is enjoyed and appreciated by those who can see it, because it gathers most of the entries in one convenient place - and there is no desire to stop using it; and
5) entries that are posted in the threads by non-subscribing members also enhance the MSA and are enjoyed by all, subscriber and non-subscriber alike.

There is also a reasonable amount of consensus among subscribers that it would be good to have more benefits arising out of the support that subscribers give to APUG. Opinions do differ, however, on whether the MSA is one place where any of those extra benefits should appear.

There is one fact that we have to deal with when we consider what to do when someone is the "winner" of the MSA - only a subscriber is able to view the contents of any APUG gallery. So if someone is going to judge all the entries in any MSA, including the entries that are uploaded only to the MSA gallery, they need to be a subscriber.

The last two times I considered a new theme for the MSA I did a fairly extensive review of previous examples. In addition to helping me avoid a previously chosen theme, my review led me to the observation that over the years the majority of he participants have been subscribers, but there always has been a small but meaningful amount of participation by non-subscribers. As best as I can tell, due to chance this is he first time that an apparent "winner" has turned out to be a non-subscriber. So the issue just hasn't come up before.

Based on the responses in the threads and in private messages and emails I have received or seen from regular posters in the MSA, the Moderators and Sean, I am going to step forward and set the following slightly new rules. They are essentially consistent with some things I have circulated to several people:

1) all members are encouraged to participate - subscribers and non-subscribers;
2) whoever is judged to have submitted the best photo will be judged the "winner";
3) if the "winner" is a subscriber, they will decide on the next theme and judge the results of that session;
4) if the "winner" is not a subscriber, the current judge may, but shall not be required to give the "winner" the opportunity to promptly (within 2 days) subscribe, in which case the "winner" will be the one who chooses the theme and judges the coming entries, in order to choose the next "winner";
5) otherwise, the current judge will identify the subscriber who finished closest, who will then be tasked with choosing the next theme, and judging the results.

This may not perfectly resolve everyone's concerns, but I think it will resolve almost all of them, while confirming that non-subscribers are welcome and encouraged.

FWIW, if it comes to it, I would be more likely to encourage a non-subscriber "winner" to subscribe, so that they can enjoy the benefits of subscription, including being able to choose a theme and judge the entries. I wouldn't impose that choice on someone else though. And I certainly respect FlyingCamera's opinion on these issues.

In my mind, I.G.I. was the "winner" of the last session (MSA - "Geometry"), even if he/she, as a non-subscriber, isn't eligible to choose the next theme and judge the next set of entries.

I will post in the MSA Geometry thread a reference to this. I'll also ensure that the MSA guidelines thread is updated - it needs a few changes anyways.

It is my sincere hope that this resolution will work for all.

MSA Resolution: via MattKing..

Works for me... nicely done... and makes sense..

My first entry is in the gallery.
Please note I wrote the title with tongue firmly planted on cheek...

And recall that I live in the Southern Hemisphere, so it's mid-winter right now:
No holidays, or you'll freeze!

I've been away due to a crazy work schedule in the last 2 years.
But hopefully things will taper off now and I'll be able to contribute more often.
Been following the MSA anyways without fail, just no time to do anything for it.

May I suggest a holiday?

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Hahaha.. that's great, good sense of humor...

What a great start!

MattKing said:

.....

There is also a reasonable amount of consensus among subscribers that it would be good to have more benefits arising out of the support that subscribers give to APUG. Opinions do differ, however, on whether the MSA is one place where any of those extra benefits should appear.

There is one fact that we have to deal with when we consider what to do when someone is the "winner" of the MSA - only a subscriber is able to view the contents of any APUG gallery. So if someone is going to judge all the entries in any MSA, including the entries that are uploaded only to the MSA gallery, they need to be a subscriber.

The last two times I considered a new theme for the MSA I did a fairly extensive review of previous examples. In addition to helping me avoid a previously chosen theme, my review led me to the observation that over the years the majority of he participants have been subscribers, but there always has been a small but meaningful amount of participation by non-subscribers. As best as I can tell, due to chance this is he first time that an apparent "winner" has turned out to be a non-subscriber. So the issue just hasn't come up before.

Based on the responses in the threads and in private messages and emails I have received or seen from regular posters in the MSA, the Moderators and Sean, I am going to step forward and set the following slightly new rules. They are essentially consistent with some things I have circulated to several people:

1) all members are encouraged to participate - subscribers and non-subscribers;
2) whoever is judged to have submitted the best photo will be judged the "winner";
3) if the "winner" is a subscriber, they will decide on the next theme and judge the results of that session;
4) if the "winner" is not a subscriber, the current judge may, but shall not be required to give the "winner" the opportunity to promptly (within 2 days) subscribe, in which case the "winner" will be the one who chooses the theme and judges the coming entries, in order to choose the next "winner";
5) otherwise, the current judge will identify the subscriber who finished closest, who will then be tasked with choosing the next theme, and judging the results.

.....

Click to expand...

Very disappointing I would say... The "new" rules only reinforce the old ground for discriminating against the non paying participants and legitimise the subscription push if the winner wants to be a winner; a walled garden with a fig leaf for popular appeal.

I.G.I. said:

Very disappointing I would say... The "new" rules only reinforce the old ground for discriminating against the non paying participants and legitimise the subscription push if the winner wants to be a winner; a walled garden with a fig leaf for popular appeal.

Click to expand...

So given the long-standing reality that visibility of the APUG galleries is limited to subscribers (for reasons having to do with the financial survival of this site), what then would be your suggested solution to the problem of non-subscribers judging future rounds where the majority of submissions are located in the MSA gallery?

Ken

Ken Nadvornick said:

So given the long-standing reality that visibility of the APUG galleries is limited to subscribers (for reasons having to do with the financial survival of this site), what then would be your suggested solution to the problem of non-subscribers judging future rounds where the majority of submissions are located in the MSA gallery?

Ken

Click to expand...

Hi Ken and Matt (and everyone else),
I can see what Matt's suggestion is getting at and it might be a good compromise and viable solution. But before we decide, I would ask you all to please first consider my chain of thought as well.

In general the MSA always worked like this:
1) all subscribers and members (= non-subscriber) can participate and win in the MSA, based on the quality of the entered image, to be judged by the host/judge of that MSA: subscribing is not a factor for judging and choosing a winner.
2) Normally the winner of the current MSA is picked by the current judge of that MSA, and the new winner has to choose the new theme for the next MSA (shortly) and will judge the all entries for this new theme in about 2 months time.
3) We don't want to "push" anyone into subscribing to APUG - deliberately or accidentally. The open and friendly atmosphere of APUG itself should be incentive enough for any member to freely choose to subscribe and become a "full and supporting member" of our great APUG family. And if that's not the case than that's fine as well (as stated by moderator David).

I think we are all clear/agreed about that as a basic principle/setting for the MSA - and that does also fit the original thought, feeling and ground rules of APUG itself, as described by moderator David previously.

And that's also what I recognize in Matt's suggested new guidelines.

However, that's also what raised the hypothetical question recently, what to do if in the future a non-subscriber wins, who can't see the images uploaded to the gallery (because you have to be a subscriber to view any of the galleries) and thus wouldn't be able to judge all entries. That's why Matt suggested his new guideline: that if a future winner isn't a subscriber and for whatever (good) reason isn't going to subscribe shortly, we'll have to get someone else to host the next MSA to avoid this potential effect upfront.
But I think there might be an other (easier?) solution to avoid this effect, if we take one step back and look at the root causes first.

The primary question to be answered (first) is if the entries shouldn't be uploaded (also) into the thread itself in the first place. Moderator David stated previously that this is a viable and acceptable option for APUG too (so no problem there). I would be in favor for posting all entries into the thread itself anyway for several reasons:
1) It is easier to view/compare all the entries (and comments) in the thread itself - at least I feel it is more user-friendly than have to go the the gallery, open each image (in a separate window) to compare and subscribe to it for future comments, etc.
2) Since we agreed that the MSA is open to all subscribers and members (= non-subscriber) I think we should also make it possible for all participants to view all entries (to get inspired and to be able to comment) in the thread of the ongoing MSA - and this can easily be done by uploading the entries to the thread itself.
3) You can always take a single subscription to the thread itself, so you will be notified immediately for all new entries, comments, etc. You have to do this only once and the system will keep you posted. For images and comments entered in the gallery you'll have to subscribe to each individual image, so not so user friendly (I often miss the entries in the Gallery - I know: silly me).

For this I would like to suggest we make a MSA guideline that all entries should be at least uploaded into the thread itself. Furthermore all the subscribers can also upload their image to the MSA Gallery (as a perk for subscribing), thus being able to also share their image easily with all other APUG-ers outside the MSA as well (viewing new images posted in any gallery, etc).

The new guideline could be something like this:

"Please post your entry in the MSA thread itself, for only subscribers are allowed to post and view any of the galleries and we'd like to share all the entries in the MSA with all subscribers and members. And if you're a subscriber, please also post your entry in the MSA Gallery as well".

If we could agreed on this, then the previous problem/effect would be void/solved, since a non-subscribing winner/judge can always view all the entered images in the thread itself. And thus we won't have a potential discussion or search for the next host if the winner and all the runner ups happen to be non-subscribers

Besides, isn't part of the winning the thrill of becoming the next host of a MSA and choosing a theme yourself (at least it was for me).

We could just add one more general guideline like this to avoid the same discussion in the future:
"All members and subscribers are welcome to participate in MSA and will be judged equally, wether they subscribe to APUG or not."

I would love to hear what you all think about my arguments.
Thanks,
Bert from Holland

Well, due to an unfortunate experience a while back I haven't been an MSA participant for a long time, so I'm not offering an opinion on this one.

My only curiosity was to hear any alternative ideas the aggrieved poster might have for solutions. If his approval is being sought, and the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, then the quickest traverse of that line is just to ask him directly.

And not to discount the possibility that he might honestly have a better solution...

Ken

Well, I'm with Bert on this one. I know I don't always have an entry for the MSA (I often shoot for it, but don't always get around to posting) but I follow them regularly. I was going to say that I'm sure some non-subscribers have won in the past, but I can't remember which one, and looking at old assignments doesn't help since our avatars always list our current subscriber status, not what it was at the time we posted.

I agree that having to upload images to the thread makes sense - its easier just to look in one place rather than go back and forth; on the other hand, I like browsing through the MSA gallery, even though most people do not upload their assignments there, many just upload to the regular gallery. Also, I can ignore comments in the gallery when judging images; it's harder to do in the thread. In addition, uploading to the gallery allows non-participants to see what people are doing, and may send them here.

In any event, I have my own thoughts regarding whether participants to various activities here on APUG should be open to subscribers (or not), but for the MSA it's a no-brainer. This is a fun activity that requires no outlay of time or money (unlike other member-organised functions), there are no prizes... so really there should be no reason why it can't be open to both members and subscribers alike.

Since this discussion is moving into public and out of PMs, I will put my opinion here. I think there was quite a bit of communication in the background and that Matt's proposal was a compromise between differing opinions.

I respect the point of view that the more "active participation" areas on APUG might be a benefit of subscribing, as opposed to banter in the general forums.

However, my preference is for MSA to be as Bert and Rachelle described.

Let's have fun and make some pictures.

Ned

I enjoyed following the MSA long before I became a subscriber, and even though I can now view the galleries, I still find it easier to regularly follow the thread(s), visiting the respective gallery only on occasion. I follow each one. I think posting all photos in the thread is a good idea in general; especially for non-subscribers to view - you never know how it may indirectly benefit APUG in the long-run. If nothing else, it might generate goodwill and camaraderie within this community.

I must admit, however, I don't understand how this particular issue came about, as the old "rules" stated the MSA was open to all, not just subscribers, and seemed to infer this applied to "winning."

Posting in thread vs. Gallery

Why in the name of all that's good and green would we want to go through the long, complicated process of posting in the thread when it is SO much quicker and simpler to post in the Gallery? Why have a Gallery at all if we're not going to use it? The photos are side by side and easily compared without all the hassle of scrolling though the thread with all the comments.
I have enjoyed being a part of MSA for several years now (as a subscriber) but would not enjoy participating if I am forced to go through the hassle (and it IS a hassle compared to posting in the Gallery) of posting in the thread.
I sincerely cannot fathom why anyone would want to do it that way. Explanations please?

barbara ann,

It's easy for me to post either in-line or in gallery because I am a subscriber (whew renewed just in time) and I also have a little vanity website where I can post all the image content I wish...

But I am sympathetic.

So here's a deal...

I would like MSA to be open to all.

If a Member wins and does not wish to pay for a subscription at the time... I will pay for that Member to have a subscription so they can manage the next MSA...

I'm willing to take that risk for this MSA until the first Member Winner asks me to put my money where my mouth is... Then the following MSA, another dark horse may volunteer to be on the hook in a similar manner.

Truzi said:

I must admit, however, I don't understand how this particular issue came about, as the old "rules" stated the MSA was open to all, not just subscribers, and seemed to infer this applied to "winning."

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As best as I can tell, no-one has ever been the MSA judge who hasn't also been a subscriber. I may have missed someone in my search, but I checked for either current subscriber status or gallery postings for all (or almost all) of them.

The earliest ones are the hardest to check, because they don't start out with a theme - one evolves throughout the thread.

barbara ann said:

Why in the name of all that's good and green would we want to go through the long, complicated process of posting in the thread when it is SO much quicker and simpler to post in the Gallery? Why have a Gallery at all if we're not going to use it? The photos are side by side and easily compared without all the hassle of scrolling though the thread with all the comments.
I have enjoyed being a part of MSA for several years now (as a subscriber) but would not enjoy participating if I am forced to go through the hassle (and it IS a hassle compared to posting in the Gallery) of posting in the thread.
I sincerely cannot fathom why anyone would want to do it that way. Explanations please?

Click to expand...

I'm sort of with barbara ann on this. I much prefer seeing as many of the photos as possible in the gallery, although I'm willing to go through the hoops to post them in the thread as well.

But I'm not willing to try to police that. And I'm not willing to try to copy images from the gallery into the thread. Or to require someone else to do that.

I think the only practical way to ensure that all images end up in the thread is to close down the MSA gallery, and that I would oppose.

I think it should stay the way it is. Anyone can participate in the threads, post entries, and win. If they want to also choose the next theme and judge the next session, they need to either:
1) already be a subscriber;
2) pay $12.00 USD to become a six month subscriber; or
3) accept the offer of someone like Bill Burk to pay for their six month subscription.