Mounting of 4X4 CC filters on INSIDE of LF lens

DanielStone · Apr 30, 2009

hey guys( and gals, the few of you on here),

really basic question: I want to mount some 4x4 CC filters to the INSIDE of my LF setup when shooting some architectural projects for class(on 4x5). I have used them many a time for MF and 35, but so far, very little for LF.

I have assisted for a few people in the past and they almost always mount the wratten gels inside the lens, mainly to reduce flair.

Now with the digi stuff in full swing in the pro market, students like me are able to pick up some CC filters for cccccchhhhheeeeeeaaaaaapppppp!!!!!!

any ideas? does wratten, lee or cokin make one for the inside? i have seen a filter holder for the outside that has a rubber band do-hickey to hold it on, any though for 4x4" gels?

i'm using a 90mm 5.6 SA XL, and also a 47mm SA XL(loaner from friend).

I'd like to have one holder for all lenses, or 2 so i don't have to swap all the time, etc.

i use a 210, 90 xl, 150, and as stated above, sometimes a 47 xl for tight interiors.

thanks!

DanielStone · Apr 30, 2009

Greg Davis said:
It will work, and the Lee system is fine. I use a Tiffen set screw series 9 adapter with a 4x4 gel holder attachment. The only concern I would have is whether any 4x4 holder will fit inside a 4x5 camera. I am shooting 8x10, so I have plenty of real estate inside my camera.

i'll be using bag bellows primarily(for 90 and 47). i have 3x3 filters as well, will those work better? so far on my sinar f2 the 4x4 seems to fit ok.

ann · Apr 30, 2009

if you can find one of those "old" nikon filter holders, the one with the barn doors . they worked great.
they have a spring clip, with a frame for the filer. remove the "barn doors" and there you are, a very slick little filter holder that will clamp on any size lens.

2F/2F · Apr 30, 2009

You can do it, and my Sinar actually has a way to mount them directly behind the DB shutter. However, this means that you take the lens off for every shot, and do it after composing. This can work just fine, but IMO any fiddling after setting up the shot does increase the chances of a focus error. Also, several camera repair people have told me that defects on the rear side of a lens have more of an effect on image quality. This makes sense to me. If a filter is right over the outside element, it is totally out of focus no matter what. You have the whole 2D world from the lens to infinity in front of you that you are capturing. Compared to that depth, a thin filter right in front of the lens, or a defect on the front glass is nothing. But to the smaller "mini world" image with less depth inside the bellows, that filter or defect is relatively larger. I don't know optics theory, but the relativism of the matter makes me think that this makes at least some amount of sense that things behind the lens can have more of an effect than things in front.

Personally, I think you will make your shooting experience more fluid and reduce the possibility of focus error if you put the gels in front of the lens, and use a lens hood if you are getting flare.

DanielStone · Apr 30, 2009

thanks all, lots of good info to look for. anyone else have idears, thoughts, etc , please let me know

thanks

edtbjon · May 1, 2009

First, see to that the filters are clean and free of scratches (in the area through which the light passes). Second, as the filter will affect bellows draw, thin gel filters are prefered. (I think that you have to extend the draw with 1/2 the filter thickness, but don't quote me on that. Anyhow, there is plenty of information on this in quite recent threads on the subject.) This gives that you should make the final focusing adjustment with the filter in place, so that you can see that no focus-shift or other nasties starts to play up.
Apart from that, placing the filters behind the lens, e.g. as 2F/2F describes on the back of a Sinar shutter is a very nice idea.

//Björn

panastasia · May 1, 2009

Placing anything behind the rear element of a 47mm may prevent you from focusing at or near infinity. If you could, you would only be allowed limited movements - horizontal shift & rise and fall - in a small image circle that barely covers the 4x5 format, which is further limiting. If it calls for a recessed lens board, as mine does, you'll lose what you gained in bellows draw. You probably know that already, though.

Mick Fagan · May 1, 2009

More than once I have used a couple of blobs of blue tack, to hold some CC filter(s) when shooting trannies in a studio. This was usually with a 5x4 Toyo monorail and a compendium hood full of other filters.

Basically it was just a colour corrected special effect, on product photography.

One could have all funny things as specified by the art director, but any white towels or sheets, had be as be as close to white as possible.

Usually having the filter inside is a bit dicey, just keep sharp things away from the rear element.

Mick.

removed account4 · May 1, 2009

hi daniel

it is a xenophon filter holder you need. i have one, it isn't
a spring loaded one like the ones sold nowadays at calumet
but it works the same way. gaffer tape, or velcro or whatever - it to
the lensboard, and you are good to go ... want it ?

Renato Tonelli · May 1, 2009

Calumet used to make a 4x4 filter holder (maybe they still make it - I don't know); the filter holder would be permanently attached to the lens board, just in front of the rear lens element.

frotog · May 1, 2009

The trickest behind the lens filter set-up is without question the horseman accessory. The difference between glass and poly-carbonate vs. gelatin is huge. But trying to use gelatin in front of the lens can be a disaster, especially outside. Unfortunately the horseman accessory has been discontinued. However, the attachment rings are still available from b and h and I occasionally see the filter holder on ebay for anywhere between $25 - $100. Search "horseman behind the lens filter holder" in google... you might find one used. Best of luck.

richard ide · May 2, 2009

I use Kodak 4 x 4 filter holders and put small squares of pressure sensitive velcro on both the back of lensboards and the filter holders. Easy to apply and they stay put.

Smudger · May 2, 2009

My solution : I have an Ambico filter holder-very similar to the ubiquitous Cokin A or P, and a bunch of adapter rings for various lens diameters. I modified a couple of rings to push fit on the rear lens barrels.
Easy and quick to fit,and the holder can still be used for standard front-of-lens purposes.

Lee L · May 2, 2009

Always used the Voss Gelatine Filter Holder (75mm/3x3 inch) with the spring clamp in studios, with the barn doors removed. Still have and use mine inside the view cameras.

Current equivalents found at Calumet:
http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/LE5002/
http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/XB6560/

Lee

Mounting of 4X4 CC filters on INSIDE of LF lens

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