Mounting FB paper BEFORE processing

Bob Carnie · Mar 4, 2013

Aluminum is punched then the print is mounted in safelight. Mr Penn's archives and others prove this, but unfortunately how all this is done requires digital talk which is not permitted.

frotog said:
Shrinkage? The very thought of mounting sensitized paper to aluminum sheet in the dark causes me to shrink.

Multi-stage printing with registration? Really? If this is the goal, mounting to aluminum will not help - try a registration punch instead.

No, the OP pertains to a simpler goal - a flat fb print.

DREW WILEY · Mar 4, 2013

All this talk is pretty generic. Most ordinary black and white chemicals don't seem to interact with aluminum at typical working concentrations, but other things certainly can. Depends on your process.
But what's the problem with flattening a print? You just put it under a sheet of plate glass for a couple
days after drying, and then mount it. Big deal. Registering fiber-based prints is always dicey, punch or not, esp if the paper dries out between steps and has to be swelled again. Carbro and dye transfer printers are familiar with such issues.

frotog · Mar 4, 2013

Bob Carnie said:
Aluminum is punched then the print is mounted in safelight. Mr Penn's archives and others prove this, but unfortunately how all this is done requires digital talk which is not permitted.

This makes sense if your dealing with separations but not with traditional b/w print under an enlarger. What are you getting at?

Bob Carnie · Mar 4, 2013

We are multiple printing with many processes as the base image, silver being one, palladium being another , gum and cyanotype mixtures .
to do this we are mounting the print or receiving paper before it hits any liquid. this holds registration with the other registered negatives.

Since I have been stopped in the past from posting any info on how this is done using separation negatives via digital means it may be hard to understand where I am going with this... I think a great pity as many workers are doing this but unfortunately APUG community is not being updated about some exciting work being tested.

frotog said:
This makes sense if your dealing with separations but not with traditional b/w print under an enlarger. What are you getting at?

Mainecoonmaniac · Mar 4, 2013

2 things that will effect archival stability of your print. Not being able to wash the back side of your print and photo mount or spray which has solvents will destroy your print.

Bob Carnie · Mar 4, 2013

Heat activated tissue is removable print comes off the aluminum if you so wish.

Mainecoonmaniac said:
2 things that will effect archival stability of your print. Not being able to wash the back side of your print and photo mount or spray which has solvents will destroy your print.

Mainecoonmaniac · Mar 4, 2013

Yes but..

Bob Carnie said:
Heat activated tissue is removable print comes off the aluminum if you so wish.

If the paper is heat mounted before it's exposed or processed, the paper will be fogged by the heat from the mounting press. Never tried it, but I might be wrong.

Bob Carnie · Mar 4, 2013

You are wrong.. I am not speculating here, its been common practice for us for a few years now.

Mainecoonmaniac said:
If the paper is heat mounted before it's exposed or processed, the paper will be fogged by the heat from the mounting press. Never tried it, but I might be wrong.

removed account4 · Mar 4, 2013

Bob Carnie said:
You are wrong.. I am not speculating here, its been common practice for us for a few years now.

hi bob

is the aluminum you use black / enameled ? or is it shiny / metalic ?
the stuff wet platers use is black / enameled so the aluminum ions are coated ...
either way, its pretty cool ... and to think aluminum was worth more than gold 100 years ago

you never know exactly what cool stuff you will learn on this site !

thanks

john

L Gebhardt · Mar 4, 2013

Mounting it before printing should cut down on half moons and other handling mistakes with large prints. Much less chance of kinking it on a sheet of aluminum.

It could also cut down on the dry-down effect since that's related to the shrinking from the wet state. You might need to mount them in the wet state for this to work though. Tape for watercolor paper should work for this as it adheres when wet.

Having said all that, it's not something that I would want to bother with for normal prints. Way to much work, especially considering the very real chance each print is destined for the waste basket and not the wall.

DREW WILEY · Mar 4, 2013

If Bob is referring to DiBond it does cost like gold !

Bob Carnie · Mar 4, 2013

Diabond is t0o thick for our purposes, remember I need to punch through with a stroseer punch system so the metal needs to be thin enough for this but also stable enough to handle.
Not very thick at all and reusable so the costs go down, for testing I will not worry about the shrinkage and only mount when I have my final balances calculated.

I think I paid about 10 -20 per sheet cut to size to fit in my Nu Ark.
Certain papers can be cold mounted as well with reversable mount cold tissue.
I have tried both and they work.

DREW WILEY said:
If Bob is referring to DiBond it does cost like gold !

Zishe Breitbart · Mar 4, 2013

Thank you all for your valuable feeback and your recommendations so far.
I did not state all my motivations why to mount FB before processing:

1st I am a lazy guy: I like darkroom work, but drying/pressing/mounting afterwards is not my favorite leisure activity.
It would be nice to always have some pre-mounted paper sheets ready. After processing the sheet can be put anywhere to dry - done!

2nd I planned to build some kind of LF instant camera using direct positive paper. It is quite hard to design a mechanical system that is able to handle uneven FB paper and place it flat at the correct position. However such a system becomes much simpler if the paper is mounted already.

Today I did my first attempts using 2.5mm aluminium (not lacquered nor anodized) and Harman direct positive paper; mounting in red light was pretty easy. I noticed no difference in development/stopping/fixing times, the paper stayed flat even after washing. The aluminium did not change condition.

I'm curious how it will look like tomorrow...

Zishe

Steve Smith · Mar 4, 2013

jnanian said:
and to think aluminum was worth more than gold 100 years ago

It's certainly more useful than gold.

Steve.

frotog · Mar 4, 2013

Zishe Breitbart said:
2nd I planned to build some kind of LF instant camera using direct positive paper. It is quite hard to design a mechanical system that is able to handle uneven FB paper and place it flat at the correct position. However such a system becomes much simpler if the paper is mounted already.

Zishe

This makes sense now. The aluminum sheet allows for a flat, even plane to expose to. I'd imagine that it might also serve as a kind of anti-halation layer, improving image quality that much more.

Sounds really cool. Please post pics if you can.

Zishe Breitbart · Mar 6, 2013

I surely will keep you updated and post pics - my projects usually take some months until completion.

spijker · Mar 6, 2013

Bob Carnie said:
Certain papers can be cold mounted as well with reversable mount cold tissue.

Bob, can you name such a tissue? Would this tissue work for non-permanent mounting of a print to a mat/foam-board for display? I'm not concerned about whether it's archival or not.

Bob Carnie · Mar 6, 2013

You can speak with Luigi from DRYTac Canada, I believe the one I am using hot is called flo - mount, there is a cold mount tissue as well. 1-905-660-1748

If you want it reversable you need to tell him that and explain how you are mounting....The hot tissue is a heat method, of getting the print off the mount, I am not sure but the cold I believe needs some solvent but Luigi is very open and you can say that I recommended you call him.

Bob

spijker said:
Bob, can you name such a tissue? Would this tissue work for non-permanent mounting of a print to a mat/foam-board for display? I'm not concerned about whether it's archival or not.

AgX · Mar 6, 2013

The german manufacturer Neschen has got some reversible double-sided pressure-adhesive mounting foils on offer. Also available in the USA:

http://www.neschen.de/graphics-en/protection-and-mounting-films/category/8-doppelseitige-klebefolien---gudy

k_jupiter · Mar 6, 2013

Bob Carnie said:
Since I have been stopped in the past from posting any info on how this is done using separation negatives via digital means it may be hard to understand where I am going with this... I think a great pity as many workers are doing this but unfortunately APUG community is not being updated about some exciting work being tested.

Now Bob, I have always had a lot of respect for your contributions but this is a little over the top.

At the top of every APUG page is a link to the forum where all this can be discussed. Those who care can go there. I personally lost most of my interest in high tech darkroom/graphic arts work long before there were digital cameras. All digitizing work was done with high speed drum scanners. Separation printing was fun but really, this is a group of people who still adore printing the old analog way.
As far as pre-mounting paper on aluminum? Just to keep the FB paper flat? What happened to a drymount press with your dried prints in between acid free Arches or the like? I have prints 35 years later just as flat as the day I flattened them Oh yeah, and not stained because the one thing they did teach up in Photography school was archival processing.

It is good to see there are some people still with cool jobs in galleries, museums, etc that get to play with neat stuff that yes, transcends the analog digital boundary.

Take care,
tim in san jose

spijker · Mar 6, 2013

Thanks/Danke Bob & AgX for the info. I'll have a closer look at these products. I'm looking into a different display method than the traditional mat & glass/metal frame. I prefer the look of photo's without glass over it. If that only lasts 2 years then that's ok. Time for new prints on the wall. But it would be nice if I can separate the photo from the board and can keep/re-use whatever is still in good shape. I already found 3M's 568 PMA but that's a permanent adhesive.

Bob Carnie · Mar 7, 2013

Tim

I am glad that you still have a bit of respect for me, I hope the following dosen't chill that. The following is directed to darkroom workers who are interested
in printmaking and plan to use silver and alt materials with the goal of achieving permanent colour and black and white prints.

I have always found( the no digital talk) aspect of APUG to be its achilles heel to this Forum. Much of our new work involves a digital component that involves a laser beam of light driven by a computer. To me its the same as a tungsten flood of light driven by a electronic timer. Both end up on silver halide paper and both get processed in a darkroom.
Today the gallery is full of images that a scanner is used to digitize info to put in the gallerys here which I find to be a hypocritical bending of the rules to keep this site interesting for some.
I just think the most exciting and possibly interesting new workflow with most potential to Defend the Darkroom should be embraced here. Please consider I am coming up to 9 years on this site with many , friends and connections through discussions here and I do not plan to leave, so this topic will be brought up by me over time , that I can assure you of.

The reason I like APUG is the contributions of many here , when one follows certain forums, over the years titbids of info pop up that answer questions that an old dog like myself never knew. I am not in competition to have the most posts here as I only have the darkroom forum open , and also am very open about my failings when it comes to chemistry and physics.
Ron M, Gerold K , Ian G, Ralph L have been a huge source of information to my layman understanding of chemistry/Physics.
I even try to follow the questions Micheal R is putting forth to Stephen B and Bill B , though I must admit my brain neutrons do shut off pretty fast.
There are many more here who I am not mentioning but I appreciate the diversity and knowledge that is at my finger tips , so to speak.

I think discussions of separation negative to alt print and silver is totally left out and is a primary area of my interest and beta testing and therefore you will note my constant frustration about its lack of discussion here... This will not change for me btw , I only hope there comes a time where this silly rule is changed and the powers that be see my way of thinking and comply.

I know Sean and John eyes are rolling right now, and the moderators are heating up the arrows to fling at me but folks lets get realistic.

Of the 50 thousand members here , how many do you really think actually give a rats ass about the darkroom.
My bet is there is under a 1000 hard core darkroom printers here on this site who care. I am one of them and I know the direction darkroom work is going in the next 20 years and believe me there is a small digital device driving most of the current trends and its discussion is critical as workers with working darkrooms are embracing new ways of making archival prints .

:munch:

Bob

k_jupiter said:
Now Bob, I have always had a lot of respect for your contributions but this is a little over the top.

At the top of every APUG page is a link to the forum where all this can be discussed. Those who care can go there. I personally lost most of my interest in high tech darkroom/graphic arts work long before there were digital cameras. All digitizing work was done with high speed drum scanners. Separation printing was fun but really, this is a group of people who still adore printing the old analog way.
As far as pre-mounting paper on aluminum? Just to keep the FB paper flat? What happened to a drymount press with your dried prints in between acid free Arches or the like? I have prints 35 years later just as flat as the day I flattened them Oh yeah, and not stained because the one thing they did teach up in Photography school was archival processing.

It is good to see there are some people still with cool jobs in galleries, museums, etc that get to play with neat stuff that yes, transcends the analog digital boundary.

Take care,
tim in san jose

k_jupiter · Mar 7, 2013

Bob Carnie said:
Tim

I am glad that you still have a bit of respect for me, I hope the following dosen't chill that. The following is directed to darkroom workers who are interested
in printmaking and plan to use silver and alt materials with the goal of achieving permanent colour and black and white prints.

I have always found( the no digital talk) aspect of APUG to be its achilles heel to this Forum. Much of our new work involves a digital component that involves a laser beam of light driven by a computer. To me its the same as a tungsten flood of light driven by a electronic timer. Both end up on silver halide paper and both get processed in a darkroom.
Today the gallery is full of images that a scanner is used to digitize info to put in the gallerys here which I find to be a hypocritical bending of the rules to keep this site interesting for some.
I just think the most exciting and possibly interesting new workflow with most potential to Defend the Darkroom should be embraced here. Please consider I am coming up to 9 years on this site with many , friends and connections through discussions here and I do not plan to leave, so this topic will be brought up by me over time , that I can assure you of.

The reason I like APUG is the contributions of many here , when one follows certain forums, over the years titbids of info pop up that answer questions that an old dog like myself never knew. I am not in competition to have the most posts here as I only have the darkroom forum open , and also am very open about my failings when it comes to chemistry and physics.
Ron M, Gerold K , Ian G, Ralph L have been a huge source of information to my layman understanding of chemistry/Physics.
I even try to follow the questions Micheal R is putting forth to Stephen B and Bill B , though I must admit my brain neutrons do shut off pretty fast.
There are many more here who I am not mentioning but I appreciate the diversity and knowledge that is at my finger tips , so to speak.

I think discussions of separation negative to alt print and silver is totally left out and is a primary area of my interest and beta testing and therefore you will note my constant frustration about its lack of discussion here... This will not change for me btw , I only hope there comes a time where this silly rule is changed and the powers that be see my way of thinking and comply.

I know Sean and John eyes are rolling right now, and the moderators are heating up the arrows to fling at me but folks lets get realistic.

Of the 50 thousand members here , how many do you really think actually give a rats ass about the darkroom.
My bet is there is under a 1000 hard core darkroom printers here on this site who care. I am one of them and I know the direction darkroom work is going in the next 20 years and believe me there is a small digital device driving most of the current trends and its discussion is critical as workers with working darkrooms are embracing new ways of making archival prints .

:munch:

Bob

Oh I think there are more than 1000 darkroom printers. Its a big world out there even in APUG land. I think the reason separation process is not discussed is multifold. 1.) You know the price of registration equipment. Even used. It was a limited supply in the first place and even as shops go out of business not much finds its way to EBay or the like. 2.) Your knowledge of zonal systems and exposure/development curves has to be spot on to get expert results in the world of analog separation. 3.) Getting good densitometer readings is difficult. I have two and they never read the same. It seems even if the barometer changes the readings of my instrumentation varies. I hate screwing with it. and 5.) Lets not even get into 4 color screen print work. Getting someone to understand all the variables that brought a continuous tone photographs into the Litho world was absolute magic. And I will admit, I never mastered it and was pretty sharp in the graphic arts darkroom 30 years ago.
So my suggestion to you is that as you discover and wish to discuss digital methods that replace these older alchemic processes, you just insert pointers to the hybrid forum where such things are allowed.

tim in san jose (what amazes me is not what I have learned, but what I have learned, then lost)

Mounting FB paper BEFORE processing

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