Mount board: 2 or 4 ply for 16x20 Overmat?

gphoto120 · Mar 3, 2016

For some 16x20 frames I plan on using 4 ply Overmat (window mat) and would like opinions of using a 2 ply (to save cost) or 4 ply for the actual mount board. I will also use 3/16 foam core backing board.

Thanks for any suggestions.

wildbill · Mar 3, 2016

I've never seen/heard of anyone using anything less than 4ply. I can understand the frustration of matting prints nowadays as the prices have skyrocketed in the last ten years. $15/sheet and every one has defects. That's what I'm dealing with.

bdial · Mar 3, 2016

I agree with wildbill, I've never seen 2 ply used as a window, the usual decision point is between 4 and 8 ply.
No matter what, you are already spending a good bit for the rest of the framing, I think using two ply would spoil the whole effort.
Frame Destinations (a sponsor) has pretty good prices for pre-cut mats.

OTH, we just hung a new juried show at the gallery (VCP) and quite a lot of the work is framed with no window, with the picture going right up to the frame. It makes for a very different look, but overall it looks nice.

eddie · Mar 3, 2016

bdial said:
OTH, we just hung a new juried show at the gallery (VCP) and quite a lot of the work is framed with no window, with the picture going right up to the frame. It makes for a very different look, but overall it looks nice.

With the paper touching the glass? That's never a good idea.

semi-ambivalent · Mar 3, 2016

wildbill said:
I've never seen/heard of anyone using anything less than 4ply. I can understand the frustration of matting prints nowadays as the prices have skyrocketed in the last ten years. $15/sheet and every one has defects. That's what I'm dealing with.

This, absolutely. The last Neilson frame I bought had corner cuts that, while square, were out of plumb and opened to the front. Everybody is an artist these days and while that's OK they aren't as critical as someone who makes income from their work. The manufacturers are being allowed to slide.

As for OP, 4-ply, every time. I've also done 4-ply matte that floats above the print on 4-ply spacers hidden by being pushed back from the window edge. But my easel can't do wide borders so it involves dry-mounting the print and I don't like that. I particularly like the look of that (the floating matte).

s-a

RalphLambrecht · Mar 3, 2016

gphoto120 said:
For some 16x20 frames I plan on using 4 ply Overmat (window mat) and would like opinions of using a 2 ply (to save cost) or 4 ply for the actual mount board. I will also use 3/16 foam core backing board.

Thanks for any suggestions.

RalphLambrecht · Mar 3, 2016

I always use the same thickness board for mat and overmmat.2ply looks cheap and is too thin to give the raised effect.

gphoto120 · Mar 3, 2016

bdial said:
I agree with wildbill, I've never seen 2 ply used as a window, the usual decision point is between 4 and 8 ply.
No matter what, you are already spending a good bit for the rest of the framing, I think using two ply would spoil the whole effort.
Frame Destinations (a sponsor) has pretty good prices for pre-cut mats.

OTH, we just hung a new juried show at the gallery (VCP) and quite a lot of the work is framed with no window, with the picture going right up to the frame. It makes for a very different look, but overall it looks nice.

I will be using 4 ply for the window mat....but am looking for thoughts on using the 2 ply for mounting the photo which will also have 3/16 foam core for the backing board. Thanks

David Brown · Mar 3, 2016

gphoto120 said:
For some 16x20 frames I plan on using ... a 2 ply (to save cost) or 4 ply for the actual mount board.

4 ply for the window mat, definitely. I've used both 2 ply and 4 ply for the mount, especially with the foam core backer board. With a backer board and once in the frame, it makes little difference. However, 2 ply will make the unframed, but mounted print surprisingly less stiff, and if you intend to have any prints mounted but not framed, then it will make a difference. I've not bought any more 2 ply once my stock ran out - the price differential is not really that much. Since I cut my own mats, I just stock 4 ply and use it for both.

gphoto120 · Mar 3, 2016

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and suggestions.

wildbill · Mar 3, 2016

I guess not everyone read your post before responding. I was referring to the mount board. You want every piece of material to be as flat as possible so changes in humidity/temp don't cause the pieces to bow/buckle even a little bit looks unsightly in my opinion. I've had some foam core bow and it had to be replaced. Just don't buy the cheapest stuff. 2 ply and foam core might be fine for 16x20 but I wouldn't go larger.

gphoto120 · Mar 3, 2016

Wow....I just realized my heading post is confusing...I should have written: 2 or 4 ply mount board for a 16x20 4 ply Overmat w/foam board backing. Sorry for the confusion!

David Allen · Mar 4, 2016

I always mount all of my fibre prints on 2-ply archival board. This stops the waviness and curling of an unmounted print but is still relatively thin (and cheaper) for storage purposes. All exhibited prints are window matted with 4-ply matts (which I reuse).

Bests,

David.
www.dsallen.de

Chuck_P · Feb 27, 2025

I'd like to awaken this thread to get some further thoughts on the idea of using 2-ply mount boards to save cost while using the 4-ply for the window mat. It seems post #9 above may be the most practical way of looking at it but I'm wondering how many use 2-ply for the print to save on cost versus using 4-ply for both the print and the window mat. The current cost differential between 25 count 11x14 4-ply museum board ($114.90) and the 2-ply ($57.40) is.........$57.40. Is there any other significant reason that may not already be mentioned in this old thread that would warrant the extra cost of using 4-ply for both when using at least a 3/16" foam backing board? I'm not seeing one myself.

DREW WILEY · Feb 27, 2025

I've sometimes doubled up 2-ply window mats, to provide a double border effect. In other words, the net thickness is still 4 plys.

But I don't like the idea of only a 2-ply mounting board unless you're only talking about quite small prints in a storage box or presentation binder. It's not stiff enough. I can understand the temptation due to the sheer price of museum board these days. But you should also be open to the fact that lignin-free "Conservation Board" is both cheaper and stiffer. For sake of consistency, I don't use that myself; but
it is an option.

Carnie Bob · Feb 27, 2025

For all our projects and my personal work I use 4ply overmatt and 2ply under matt. If I am framing then we put acid free foam behind this combo. We use
Petoboro M900 Rag White btw a good Canadian Company.

Arthurwg · Feb 27, 2025

I try to use 8ply when I can afford it, but that gets rather expensive.

fdi · Feb 27, 2025

There are two primary reasons to use 2-ply backing. One is to perfectly match the color of the 4ply window mat in the case where you are float mounting and the back will be visible. The other is the ensure only museum rag board is in contact with the print as opposed to a coated foam-core. In both cases the 2ply backing mat is not being used for support and something like foamcore will also be used. In both cases the reason to use the 2ply is save cost over the 4ply as you have mentioned.

My question is why do you feel you need to use museum level archival components? Museums dont things to last forever which is not possible with any framing materials. That is why archival framing is reversible...so all the components can be replaced periodically. A quality acid free foam-core and alpha-cellulose over-mat are not likely to create significant noticeable degradation while you are still alive but just a little bit of sunlight will much more degradation in far less time despite using museum rag materials and even UV filter glazing. I hope you are charging a lot for your prints and noting they are muesume quality mounted and or framed (assuming you are not using any adhesive in the mounting).

DREW WILEY · Feb 27, 2025

Do we need to get into yet another debate over the actual benefits of permanently dry-mounting prints to an archival substrate? But let's face it, despite our personal artistic egos, just how much of today's photography will really impress posterity anyway? I pity my heirs, who will have to figure out where to put all my flat files and archival boxes of mounted prints. The already framed ones are an easier problem.

RalphLambrecht · Feb 27, 2025

If you use the foam core backing board and frame behind glass, a 2-ply mount board is sufficient.

Chuck_P · Feb 27, 2025

Thanks for extra thoughts on the subject..............

DREW WILEY said:
Do we need to get into yet another debate over the actual benefits of permanently dry-mounting prints to an archival substrate?

If that's meant for me.......nope, I'm good.

Carnie Bob said:
For all our projects and my personal work I use 4ply overmatt and 2ply under matt. If I am framing then we put acid free foam behind this combo. We use
Petoboro M900 Rag White btw a good Canadian Company.

Thanks for the info I'll check them out. I believe using the 2-ply board for the mount and 4-ply for the overmat is the way for me to proceed.

Mount board: 2 or 4 ply for 16x20 Overmat?

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