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Mottling on boarders and back of paper?

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MJLangdon

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I have just finished toning with my new chemicals and I have had a problem with mottling on the boarders and back of the paper, also in very bright highlight areas.

I use potassium bromide and potassium ferricyanide for the bleach.
Sodium sulphide for the Sepia toner on the highlights and kodak Selenium toner on the shadows.
Does anyone know what would be causing the mottling on the paper?
 

Svenedin

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Did you pre-wet your prints before they went in the toner? Were they properly fixed and properly washed when you first processed the prints?
 
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MJLangdon

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Did you pre-wet your prints before they went in the toner? Were they properly fixed and properly washed?

Hi Svenedin,

I fixed the print for 1 minute in tmax fixer which is what kodak recommends for FB paper.
It was wash for 5 minutes in warm running water then bleached, rinsed off then sepia toned, rinsed off then selenium toned, fixed for 4 minutes, hypo cleared for 3 minutes then a final 5 minutes wash under warm running water.
 

Svenedin

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OK. It's years since I've used fibre paper but your wash times seem much too short to me. I only use RC paper now. I'm sure other FB paper users will advise you on the best washing technique.

Last time I sepia toned I used a 2 bath kit (bleach then redevelop) and I remember the instructions stressing the importance of prior thorough fixing and washing. The instructions even said if there was any doubt at all about the fixing and washing that it should be done again prior to toning.
 
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mike c

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Never used Tmax fixer, 1 minute seems too short for the first fixer, I use a Rapid fixer TF-5 for 2 1/2 min for first fix and another fix bath for about 2min, rinse then Hypo clear for 2 to 5 min and wash for 30 to 45 minutes, then tone. Between the Sepia tone and Selenium it is a full wash not a rinse. After Selenium toning I use hypo clear and then finale wash. This is for fiber base paper.
 
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MJLangdon

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Never used Tmax fixer, 1 minute seems too short for the first fixer, I use a Rapid fixer TF-5 for 2 1/2 min for first fix and another fix bath for about 2min, rinse then Hypo clear for 2 to 5 min and wash for 30 to 45 minutes, then tone. Between the Sepia tone and Selenium it is a full wash not a rinse. After Selenium toning I use hypo clear and then finale wash. This is for fiber base paper.

Thanks for the reply Mike.

So it sounds like the mottling is staining caused by under fixing and no where near enough washing.

Does warm tone Rc paper tone well or not really?
I'm still experimenting with different papers. I want to tone to a slight sepia/selenium split tone nothing too strong.
 

mike c

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I have not used many RC papers too tone so could not give you an answer, but I do know that others have toned them, look into Tim Rudam's Toning Book, he has a lot of info in it.
 

MattKing

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Paradox it may be, but the Ilford Cooltone RC paper tones really well for me in Sepia toner.
 

mike c

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Matt, I have a #38 Post card exchange from you here that I found on my cluttered desk this afternoon, nice photograph and its printed on Ilford MG RC and toned nicely with Sepia toner. Its post marked Sept 20th, so thanks for the card, I will have to shuffle around to find any others.
 

MattKing

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Glad you like it Mike.
That particular card is on really old, most likely storage abused (for many years in a garage!) Ilford MGIV RC Satin surface paper.
When someone gives you paper for free, its nice to be able to do something with it.
 

Gerald C Koch

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Since the fix and wash times seem dangerously short I would suggest testing a print for residual silver. The HCA should be used just after the fixing. Then wash and tone.
 

Svenedin

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Fotospeed RCVC paper tones very easily. It used to be cheaper than MGIV but now it's usually the same price. I use it a lot. Nice paper IMHO.
 
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MJLangdon

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Thank you all for your replies.
I have read on an Ilford pdf I found that all FB and Rc warm tone papers from Ilford are designed to be easily toned.

I might try ilfords multigrade Rc warm tone paper because I haven't got loads of money to be spend on water and FB papers :smile:
I'm still at the learning, testing and experimental stage in printing and toning, I have only had my enlarger for 5 weeks :smile:
 
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MJLangdon

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Fotospeed RCVC paper tones very easily. It used to be cheaper than MGIV but now it's usually the same price. I use it a lot. Nice paper IMHO.

I just looked up this paper you suggested on AG Photographic and it is very cheap :smile:
Can you tell me, is it a warm or cool tone paper?

Thanks,

Mike.
 

MattKing

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I really enjoy toning. And I do a lot of partial toning - adjusting the tone slightly, rather than toning to "completion". When it comes to warming the tone of a print, I think printing on relatively inexpensive neutral tone paper and warming the tone by toning to "taste" is a really good approach, specially if you are relatively new to darkroom printing.
 
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MJLangdon

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I really enjoy toning. And I do a lot of partial toning - adjusting the tone slightly, rather than toning to "completion". When it comes to warming the tone of a print, I think printing on relatively inexpensive neutral tone paper and warming the tone by toning to "taste" is a really good approach, specially if you are relatively new to darkroom printing.
Hi Matt, could you tell me your process for split toning FB and Rc papers.
 

MattKing

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Hi Matt, could you tell me your process for split toning FB and Rc papers.
I'm just setting up to tone my latest contributions to the APUG Postcard Exchange (Round 39). I'll get back to answering this as soon as I can.
 

Craig75

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Tim Rudman's toning book and a stepwedge (if you are inclined that way) and you are good to go.
 

MattKing

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+1 regarding Tim Rudman's book.

With respect to my process:
1) I haven't done much printing on FB paper in the last few years, so I'll just write about RC;
2) Whatever I do, I first make sure that my prints are fully fixed and well washed. I usually do all my printing first, including a full wash and air dry. My toning sessions are on separate days;
3) I have played with a few more exotic toners in the past, but essentially all my current toning involves some combination of a rehalogenating bleach, sepia toner, selenium toner and Berg Brown toner;
4) I like to "play" with toning. I'll experiment with different combinations/permutations until I achieve tones I like. It is not uncommon to end up with two different results I like, which sometimes means making hard choices;
5) I keep rehalogenating bleach at hand. Sometimes I'll use it simply for bleaching a print (rather than something like Farmers Reducer), which necessitates that prints be fixed and washed thereafter;
6) A lot of my prints are on neutral tone Ilford MGIV RC paper. That paper responds very little (visually) to Selenium toning. If I want to get more of a visual response to Selenium, one trick is to bleach the print back using the rehalogenating bleach, re-develop it, fix and wash and then Selenium tone;
7) My split-toning usually involves a split between sepia and selenium toning. I use the rehalogenating bleach to control how much sepia tone is added - primarily to the highlights. Usually I partially bleach, rinse, fully tone, rinse and then follow with selenium toning to near completion. The selenium toning (visually) affects the shadows more, but really only acts on those parts of the print that have not been converted by the (partial) sepia toning. So with a paper like Ilford MGIV, which doesn't respond a lot (visually) to selenium, you don't see much effect from that toner;
8) If I want more visual effect from the selenium part of the split I either:
a) bleach less, rinse, sepia tone fully, rinse, and then leave the print for a really long time in the selenium; or
b) bleach more, rinse, partially sepia tone, rinse, re-develop, fix, fully wash, then selenium tone;
9) of the previous two options, the second increases the effect of the selenium toning. The rehalogenating bleach first lightens the print. The partial sepia tone doesn't fully darken the bleached image, and the subsequent re-development and fix may stop it from returning it to full density. In addition, the early bleach step makes the non-sepia portion of the image much more susceptible to selenium toning that strongly alters the appearance of the image;
10) alternatively, I also use the Berg Brown toner. It allows adjustment between a slight warming of the image tone, through a more chocalate brown, through a red/copper tone, all by lengthening the time;
11) in each case, I like to follow everything with a bath in hardener, followed by a full wash. The Part B hardener that comes packaged with Kodak Rapid Fixer works perfectly. You dilute it one part concentrate plus 13 parts water. I've yet to find any capacity information for the working strength solution.

When split toning, the main trick of course is how to balance the ratio between the sepia toner's effect on the highlights and selenium toning's effect on the shadows. The other trick is to know how dark or light you need to make your print in order to make it suitable for the toning.

When you start doing this, be sure to keep notes and identify your prints in a way so you can match the printing and toning choices made with it. I would recommend as well having a standardized light source for evaluation of the results.

Hope this helps, and you have fun.
 
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MJLangdon

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Wow thank you for taking the time to reply in detail Matt.
There is a lot of very useful information you have given me, and answered a lot of questions I had about toning.

Thanks again,

Mike.
 

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I might try ilfords multigrade Rc warm tone paper because I haven't got loads of money to be spend on water and FB papers :smile:

hi mjlangdon

if you use a product like perma wash it cuts FB wash time down to about 5 mins.
you can also SOAK your prints and exchange your wash water that way, much less water used.
there are a few threads here on apug about it...

( this is a sticky in the b/w darkroom forum )
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

sorry to hear of your stains, with ilford papers i've had trouble with the emulsion flaking off the edge of the print
it looks like stains, but it's not stains...

good luck !
john

ps. there's nothing wrong with RC, some people love rc because it looks nice, and is super-fast to develop...
(and according to some of the manufacturers and wilhelm, they will out-last FB if processed right ... my printer makes
fuji crystal archive prints in her lab and told me the other day her rc prints have a 700 year lifespan ...
 
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