Mottling (low density patches) on negative

Tom Kershaw · Aug 18, 2012

I've not seen this problem before, it is distinct from the phenomena encountered using plastic reels and tanks but presumably has to do with the interaction of developer and film. - film processed in stainless steel tank and reel. Another film processed at the same time featuring extensive sky does not show these marks, which I've double checked on a light box.

Any ideas?

See area at top of image below:

Bill Burk · Aug 18, 2012

I haven't seen it before, but are you using powdered developer or mixing your own? Has it fully dissolved (any chance there are clumps of chemistry)? Is there a chance the developer sat around long enough to begin crystallizing? Filtering the developer will help if any of these guesses are right.

Tom Kershaw · Aug 18, 2012

Hello Bill,

Good point I was using slightly old XTOL. I'll mix up a fresh batch with distilled water before processing any more important film.

Tom

Photo Engineer · Aug 18, 2012

Tom;

I see a series of dark arks across the top starting at the middle and moving to the left. This is in addition to the fault you note which on my screen is less evident than the arks.

It indicates to me that there is some sort of agitation or foaming problem.

PE

Tom Kershaw · Aug 18, 2012

PE,

I was using a 4 reel tank, perhaps I should stick to the 2 reel tanks with plastic lids from Calumet which have never given problems. The film does seem to slide around more in the longer tank.

EDIT: the 4 reel tanks are all metal and leak slightly, compared to the plastic lid tanks which form a good seal.

Tom

Photo Engineer · Aug 18, 2012

Well, if I were Noah, I would see arks, but I saw arcs!

Sorry about the misuse!

Anyhow Tom, I have no idea, I just saw a lot of non-uniformity with no specific cause.

PE

Tom Kershaw · Aug 18, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
Anyhow Tom, I have no idea, I just saw a lot of non-uniformity with no specific cause.

PE

Yes, it is a puzzling one. I think I'll stick to the 2 reel tanks for the moment and double check my assumptions...
I switched from plastic to stainless steel a while back and in general have achieved better uniformity, certainly none of those edge markings that can appear with plastic reels.

Tom

Photo Engineer · Aug 18, 2012

Did you use a pre-wet?

PE

Tom Kershaw · Aug 18, 2012

Yes, despite what ILFORD suggests.

Tom

brucemuir · Aug 18, 2012

good to see ya Ron
sorry guys…carry on.

By the way, it does look like agitation but what are the specifics anyway???

Film
xtol (you say old…?)

Tom Kershaw · Aug 19, 2012

Bruce,

The XTOL is not very old, just a few months in a full container and has worked fine with other films. I suspect filling and dumping the longer tank may be to blame. Film is Delta 100.

Tom

desertrat · Aug 19, 2012

I saw this same phenomenon in some J&C Pro 100 in 120 size that I had stored past its expiration date. I believe the film was rebranded Shanghai GP3 100. Some rolls from the same batch that had been exposed and developed before it expired also showed this, after doing some further checking, but was much less noticeable and I didn't see it at first. I only saw it after I had trouble with the last couple of rolls and went back to look harder at the earlier ones.

I also noticed this problem recently with a batch of 10 rolls of Ultrafine Plus 100 in size 120 that I bought several months ago. As a control, I exposed and developed a roll of Plus-x that was cold stored and expired a couple of years ago. No mottling, so I don't think it was my process. I think the Chinese emulsions in 120 are susceptible to this, especially past their expiration date even if cold stored. The Ultrafine film had no expiration date, so I have no way of knowing how old it is.

Edit: I just noticed you mentioned the negatives were Delta 100. Is the film expired, by any chance?

Tom Kershaw · Aug 19, 2012

No, film is not expired but is part of a processing backlog from last Autumn, and the film would still be in or at date now, e.g. July 2012 onwards.

Tom

Photo Engineer · Aug 19, 2012

Tom, was the film stored in a refrigerator or freezer? If so, this might be moisture condensation.

PE

Tom Kershaw · Aug 19, 2012

PE,

No, I stored the film at moderate room temperature.

Tom

BMbikerider · Aug 19, 2012

I have seen something like this before on very old film stock that had been stored in a warm(ish) damp(ish) place. Only you know what conditions it has been stored in but that is my contribution.

polyglot · Aug 19, 2012

I don't reckon it's the Xtol because the other film was fine and you didn't get dense spots from undissolved materials. And likewise the spots are not an agitation problem.

My suspicion would be something on the film, either condensation or mould spots. The condensation could have occurred before exposure.

Tom Kershaw · Aug 21, 2012

Further developments:

Yesterday I processed another two rolls of Delta 100 '120' in a 2-reel stainless steel tank. One of the films was from the same day with the same subject matter as my original post and displayed the mottling, but the other film, again exposed last Autumn and with extensive sky in frame did not... - printing the 6x7 negatives onto 12"x16" paper so reasonable enlarging for checking quality control issues.

Tom

Thomas Bertilsson · Aug 21, 2012

If it's isolated to particular rolls of a tank with multiple rolls it couldn't be the developer as it would affect all of the rolls.

The only common denominator is that the two films that display the problem are shot on the same day and are likely from the same manufacturing batch.

I'm inclined to believe it has to do with how those particular films were stored; if they at some point were frozen and condensation got to them somehow, as mentioned above. Is there any way of telling whether your problems can be isolated to a particular batch of film, and their storage conditions prior to you being in possession of them?

Photo Engineer · Aug 21, 2012

Tom, it looks like some sort of keeping problem. Perhaps moisture condensation?

PE

Tom Kershaw · Aug 21, 2012

Well, the films were not frozen or refrigerated in my possession, and they would have been from a batch ordered near the beginning of 2011. Considering ILFORD film only travels a few hundred miles between factory - retailer - myself, at first consideration there is less time or potential for problems than film that has traveled thousands of miles by ship.

Tom

Tom Kershaw · Aug 21, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
Tom, it looks like some sort of keeping problem. Perhaps moisture condensation?

PE

Moisture condensation is starting to look like a strong possibility. Although the films have been stored together since last Autumn in a moderate temperature environment, the films were not stored together at the time of exposure; e.g. some may have been left in a sealed zip pocket of a camera bag for a few days.

Tom

Photo Engineer · Aug 21, 2012

I think it is time for you to go to Ilford on this one.

PE

Tom Kershaw · Aug 21, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
I think it is time for you to go to Ilford on this one.

PE

I could post ILFORD a couple of 8"x10" crops showing the problem.

Tom

Mottling (low density patches) on negative

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