Motion film

srs5694 · Jan 14, 2008

ricksplace said:
I managed to win two 400' rolls of Ilford FP4+ movie film a few years ago. About the only difference I can notice is the sprocket holes are slightly rounded. What would b&w negative film be used for in 35mm movie cameras?

wtf is remjet?

Remjet is a backing that's placed on color motion picture films. IIRC, it's used for anti-halation properties, but my memory is foggy on that, so I could well be wrong. The bottom line for do-it-yourselfers is that it must be removed during processing, and this is a bit of a pain if you do your own processing. It's also claimed to gunk up commercial C-41 photofinishing lines, so giving a roll of ECN-2 film to a C-41 lab will get the film returned unprocessed (or their ire, if they actually process it).

AFAIK, B&W motion picture films don't have a remjet coating, so this isn't an issue when using B&W motion picture films in a still camera. I don't know offhand what differences do exist between B&W motion picture and similar still films.

More generally speaking, although I've never processed ECN-2 films myself, I do have some ~20-year-old ECN-2 negatives that I've printed on modern papers. I've only done this with a few snapshots, though, to give copies to my sister. The results seemed OK; certainly not as bad as I'd expect based on PE's comments. The results were not great, though; I get more vibrant colors from older C-41 and C-22 negatives that I've printed myself. Based on my limited experience (just a few prints), my guess is that people who prefer a somewhat low-contrast and low-saturation look, or who want such a look for specific photos, might be interested in using an ECN-2 film for still photography. Personally, though, and for most scenes, I plan to stick to C-41 films, although if I acquired some ECN-2 film I might shoot it just out of curiosity and keep some in the freezer in case I'd find a use for it in the future.

sbelyaev · Jan 14, 2008

One of the website have short ends (200feet) of vision 2 250d. It is a lot of film. Don't want to waste it if there is no significant difference.

Photo Engineer · Jan 14, 2008

Remjet is carbon black in a water soluable polymer base which washes off in mild alkali or developer (bad). It is used as an AH layer and also an antistatic backing for high speed transport of the film during coating and exposure.

If you do a poor job of removing it, it gets into the emulsion and leaves black dots there. It is similar to a post in another thread where I said that any insoluable suspended matter in processing solutions can do this. Some disagreed wtih me, but this is indeed true and you can ruin a developer if you get remjet into it. Remjet must be removed before processing, by wetting and scrubbing only the back side of the film. No remjet should carry over and none should get onto the emulsion side. Scrubbing around the perfs is particularly necessary.

PE

Matt5791 · Jan 14, 2008

ricksplace said:
What would b&w negative film be used for in 35mm movie cameras?

Rick.

......opening sequence to Kill Bill Volume 2, as one example (Kodak Double X was used)

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/bw/5222.jhtml?id=0.1.4.6.24.4&lc=en

Matt5791 · Jan 14, 2008

sbelyaev said:
It would be interesting to know opinions of those who used to use vision or eterna films in still cameras. Kodak has very nice images on its website. I'm just not sure whether the results worth the troubles of finding and developing motion picture films.

It is very expensive to shoot motion picture film - but I would rather have 15 minutes of well exposed, well composed 16mm then 10 hours of video.

It just looks awesome. I shot a number of ski holidays on super8 and, recently for the first time, 16mm (previously ruled our for weight reasons).

Yes - probably the most expensive home movie ever, but when edited properly everyone could hardly believe it was a home movie.

ricksplace · Jan 14, 2008

Thanks guys. I kinda thought remjet must be like the anti-halation layer in b&w films. I'll have to go and watch the opening sequence from Kill Bill 2. This is what I love about this place. All this expertise there for the asking!

Nokton48 · Jan 14, 2008

I just picked up 400' of Eastman Double-XX 5222 film from Photo Emporium in NYC, at 20 cents a foot, cost me $90 with Fedex for 400ft. I'm going to shoot it up in my new button-rewind Leica M2, which seems appropriate, since Double-XX was introduced in 1959, same year as my M2

Before there was Tri-X, there was Double-XX. Very cool film with a definate "retro" look to it. Amazing that it is still readily available for us to enjoy.

sbelyaev · Jan 14, 2008

Nokton48 said:
I just picked up 400' of Eastman Double-XX 5222 film from Photo Emporium in NYC, at 20 cents a foot, cost me $90 with Fedex for 400ft. I'm going to shoot it up in my new button-rewind Leica M2, which seems appropriate, since Double-XX was introduced in 1959, same year as my M2

Before there was Tri-X, there was Double-XX. Very cool film with a definate "retro" look to it. Amazing that it is still readily available for us to enjoy.

May be you can post some images one day?
Few hours ago I ordered 200 feet of Vision2 250d from the same place (out of curiosity). Only $43 with Fedex. It looks like no one has experience with this films. It is not too expensive to experiment (except for development at A&I). Actually 200 feet might be too much for me, so if anyone is interested we can share the film.

lonelyboy · Jan 15, 2008

sbelyaev said:
Kodak vision2 250d is very inexpensive 0.15USD/foot. Processing at A&I is $15/roll.
I'm just curious whether it is worth to try this film. (or similar films).

Wow...it is cheap! Is it a short end roll? A new roll of 5205 is about 50 cents/foot.

lonelyboy · Jan 15, 2008

radiantdarkroom said:
Okay I'm totally wrong, It's only in print film without ramjet. That's pretty useless for traditional looking color prints through analog printing. But there is a Ramjet backed IN film that you could use that is tungsten based ASA 6. Can't beat that for sharpness.

There is a non remjet base intermediate film called 2242. It is a polyester base non remjet intermediate film. However, as with all other motion picture intermediate film, it has a contrast index of 1, unlike color negative with contrast index of 0.5-0.6. Therefore, shooting in 2242 may result in a high picture contrast.

lonelyboy · Jan 15, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Daniel;

Motion picture film generally has higher latitude, more sharpness and finer grain than consumer films. This is usually due to the fact that the latest generation in technology goes into MoPic first before into still films due to the demands placed on it in terms of magnification. The latitude is required for making prints and for SFX, but the other factors relate to projected quality.

Therefore the 2 electron sensitization went into Vision first. It is now used in Portra.

PE

When will the DLT be used in other still film too?

Photo Engineer · Jan 15, 2008

I'm not familiar with DLT. Perhaps I know it under another name. And due to a heavy schedule here on the DVD work, I have not had a chance to read up on the new Vision, only talk about it with friends. But, since a new series of Portra films were introduced about the same time, I would say that except for latitude, the still and MP films should be similar about now.

There are teams still working on all color films except Kodachrome. There are also teams working on B&W films.

PE

JBrunner · Jan 15, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
There are teams still working on all color films except Kodachrome. There are also teams working on B&W films.

PE

Rockin' good news.

nworth · Jan 15, 2008

I used to use a lot of motion picture short ends. When I was in college, it saved me a lot of money. Motion picture film is different than still film, however. It is usually a bit less sharp but finer grained. You probably won't be able to notice a significant difference for average work. Kodak color negative motion picture film (and probably others) has a RemJet antihalation backing that can be a real pain to remove if you don't have the right equipment. Most color motion picture film produced now seems to be quite stable, but earlier negative film was notable for color shifts and instability with time. Remember that motion picture camera film is meant for short term use, to make master positives. There is no commercial need for it to be stable over many years. Add to that that some of the commercial houses that marketed motion picture film for still camera use processed it incorrectly, and you have a formula for bad results. This said, my experiences with black and white motion picture film in still cameras has been very good, and I have used Ektachrome reversal motion picture film in still cameras with good results and good stability (over 40 years) as well. Sometimes motion picture film uses different processes than still film. For Kodak, the formulas and processing instructions are published, and you can compare them to the still film equivalents. You can generally use the still film chemicals successfully, but there may be some color shifts and contrast changes.

Scandium · Jan 15, 2008

I believe that the Fuji MP color negative stocks do not have the RemJet backing used by Agfa and Kodak. That should make home processing a bit less messy. I used Kodak and Fuji MP color for weddings during the 80s. The low contrast and long tonal scale does a great job with white bridal dresses and black tuxes. I've pulled some of the old negatives from late 70s and early 80s and they still print fine. I get best results by scanning and adjusting the gamma for digital printing.

One risk of both the color and B&W MP stocks is that they have a very thin anti-scratch coat on the emulsion side, so negatives will scratch more easily from handling. I still use 5222 because of the retro B&W look it provides and would still use the color stocks if processing were more available.

$g

lonelyboy · Jan 16, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
I'm not familiar with DLT. Perhaps I know it under another name. And due to a heavy schedule here on the DVD work, I have not had a chance to read up on the new Vision, only talk about it with friends. But, since a new series of Portra films were introduced about the same time, I would say that except for latitude, the still and MP films should be similar about now.

There are teams still working on all color films except Kodachrome. There are also teams working on B&W films.

PE

DLT is the advanced Dye Layering Technology which uses 2 kind of sensitizing dye in one emulsion to extend the spectral sensitivity of silver halide grain.

wildbill · Jan 16, 2008

sbelyaev said:
May be you can post some images one day?
Few hours ago I ordered 200 feet of Vision2 250d from the same place (out of curiosity). Only $43 with Fedex. It looks like no one has experience with this films. It is not too expensive to experiment (except for development at A&I). Actually 200 feet might be too much for me, so if anyone is interested we can share the film.

Anything under 200ft gets thrown away on shoots so you typically won't see anything much shorter than that at the recycler places. When i was a loader, i'd bring home whatever i wanted but 5274 looked the best for landscapes with a 85 filter of course. When this strike is over, i'll be able to get short ends again if anyone is really interested. Most jobs only shoot vision2 500t, 250D, and vision2 200t.
vinny

Photo Engineer · Jan 16, 2008

lonelyboy said:
DLT is the advanced Dye Layering Technology which uses 2 kind of sensitizing dye in one emulsion to extend the spectral sensitivity of silver halide grain.

Well, there was double layer technology as well.

DLT is not uncommon. "J" aggregation is one type of DLT know for years. It is used in the red layer of Kodachrome. Usually it is one type of dye, but several can be used if done properly.

This is then a combination of 2 electron sensitization and DLT. Nothing new, but a combination of old to get synergy I would guess.

PE

lonelyboy · Jan 17, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Well, there was double layer technology as well.

DLT is not uncommon. "J" aggregation is one type of DLT know for years. It is used in the red layer of Kodachrome. Usually it is one type of dye, but several can be used if done properly.

This is then a combination of 2 electron sensitization and DLT. Nothing new, but a combination of old to get synergy I would guess.

PE

Oh I see. PE you are so knowledgeable!

Paul Verizzo · Jan 21, 2008

wildbill said:
A and I bought RGB color labs machinery and set it up last year. The prices are much higher than RBG's were but the set photographer demand for it isn't there anymore. We're lucky to have anyone that'll do it anywhere! They sell rolls of kodak and fuji stocks too. The latitude of the vision stocks is very wide and those films printed on paper have a nice look that's just different.
bottom of the page........http://www.aandi.com/film_pro2.htm#mp

So that's what happened to RGB! Around 1992 I switched most of my shooting to whatever color neg was Freestyle inexpensive, then have RGB turn it into slides on Vericolor "slide print" film. 5022? Prints optional. I lived not too far away. (One of the advantages of living in LA, the photo industry.)

I did that for several years after moving to Colorado and then fell out of doing much photography for awhile. When I was mentally ramping back up recently, looking at current materials and options, I was disappointed to see that RGB was history. Dale offers some similar work, but the pricing, ouch!

I liked color neg to slide, but now I'm putzing with color neg to.....digital.

butterflydream · Jan 23, 2008

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Please don't ask me how it was done, I didn't do that but the prolab did who doesn't tell me how he had done. I only know he chemically removed the back layer, not mechanically.

Michael W · Jan 29, 2008

I'm in Los Angeles & collected a roll of motion picture film that I left with A&I before I went to Mexico. One nice thing that I wasn't expecting was that I got back the strip of neg along with a strip of positive film printed from the neg. Looks great. Apparently this is the standard service. I've bought another 10 rolls but will be posting them from Sydney from now on.

Motion film

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