Most Rugged, Long Lasting Nikon?

Roger Hicks · Aug 18, 2006

df cardwell said:
SO, WHAT IF THE BATTERY DIES ? As my friend Dante Stella explained it to me, "You replace the battery, Einstein".

If you have a battery handy. If you always do, I salute you. I tend to change my camera bags and do not always move the batteries at the same time. What if you learn this when you are 100 miles from the nearest battery shop, on a public holiday?

You say, in effect, "Bigger fool you for not carrying a spare battery." I say, in effect, "Bigger fool you for needing one."

Either viewpoint is defensible; neither is right. Choose the one that suits you better.

As for reliability, when the F2 came out, we bought a couple at the studio where I was working at the time. They went back for repair more than once, which the Fs didn't. Subsequent F-series just got bigger and uglier and more complicated.

Cheers,

Roger

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roteague · Aug 18, 2006

df cardwell said:
My the time the F2 rolled around, many problems of the F were ironed out. The F2 was pronounced a hockey puck. Yes. And the F3s proved even more reliable. More precise, and better hockey pucks.

The early ones didn't seem to be. I bought an F3 in 1981, and went through 3 circuit boards in less than 10 years. Meanwhile, my F2 continued to work flawlessly. I still have the camera, use it for a paperweight.

Lee Shively · Aug 18, 2006

My personal favorite was the F2 series. I still have the first one I ever bought new--in 1973. It still works fine but I don't use it anymore. I actually dropped that camera and smashed the meter prism so badly a replacement meter wouldn't fit right. The insurance company totalled it and I bought it back from them for $50. I put on plain prism, got a technician to adjust it and check it out and continued to use it.

I had very few problems with the F2's I used daily for several years. I remember one that had duct tape all over the motor drive and an MF-3 back that had been worn smooth from the heavy use it received. It never failed despite looking like a piece of junk.

Overall, either the F or the F2 would be a good choice. I would probably go with an F2A since it used AI lenses and didn't need to use the prong to index the lens to the meter.

copake_ham · Aug 18, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
df cardwell said:

SO, WHAT IF THE BATTERY DIES ? As my friend Dante Stella explained it to me, "You replace the battery, Einstein".

If you have a battery handy. If you always do, I salute you. I tend to change my camera bags and do not always move the batteries at the same time. What if you learn this when you are 100 miles from the nearest battery shop, on a public holiday?

You say, in effect, "Bigger fool you for not carrying a spare battery." I say, in effect, "Bigger fool you for needing one."

Either viewpoint is defensible; neither is right. Choose the one that suits you better.

As for reliability, when the F2 came out, we bought a couple at the studio where I was working at the time. They went back for repair more than once, which the Fs didn't. Subsequent F-series just got bigger and uglier and more complicated.

Cheers,

Roger

Click to expand...

Roger,

The F3 (and others) uses the standard LR-44. You can buy several dozen on eBay for pennies. I just shove a bunch in every camera bag - with extras in the fridge.

The anti-battery thing really is overdone. The same guys who shun battery-using cameras walk around with cell phones, iPods and laptops!

EDIT: Oh and my F3HP is smaller than my F!

Click to expand...

Roger Hicks · Aug 18, 2006

copake_ham said:
Roger
The anti-battery thing really is overdone. The same guys who shun battery-using cameras walk around with cell phones, iPods and laptops!

I don't habitually walk around with any of them. When I do, I rarely care if the batteries die. With the camera, I do.

LR44s may be cheap, but they don't last. SR44s ain't anything like as cheap. And besides, why rely on anything more than you have to?

As I say, both viewpoints are defensible. I just get a bit annoyed with the Battery Evangelists who think that their way is the only way. If you like batteries, best of luck to you. I don't. My problem, not yours. Until you're caught without a battery...

Cheers,

R

Muihlinn · Aug 18, 2006

copake_ham said:
The anti-battery thing really is overdone.

Diesel or Gasoline?
Once you run out of power (regulatons, discontinuation, etc) or a spring breaks, it does not matter what caused the failure . The days of faulty electronics have gone, thanks god. On the other hand, let's admire the big pile 0'trash we made when all those batteries will die.

Sure, there is no reason to avoid electronics, either, there is no reason to avoid mechanical. Fancy one? great choice, fancy the other?, very nice choice.

Lee Shively · Aug 18, 2006

Today's cameras with their electronics have become about as reliable as mechanical cameras. One big plus for electronic cameras are that they don't need the periodic adjustments to the mechanical shutter parts that older cameras required. One big plus for the totally mechanical cameras are that they don't need batteries.

I like both. I use Leicas and Mamiya TLRs--neither are battery dependent. I use Canon EOS and Pentax 645--both are electronic. The only problem I've ever had with a Leica is the meter circuit going dead. The only problem I've ever had with an EOS was a broken mechanical part. Both kept working despite the malfunctions.

Chan Tran · Aug 18, 2006

Lee Shively said:
The only problem I've ever had with a Leica is the meter circuit going dead. The only problem I've ever had with an EOS was a broken mechanical part. Both kept working despite the malfunctions.

Interesting! So the problem with a mechanical camera is with its electronic parts and the problem with an electronic camera is with its mechanical parts.

Paul Howell · Aug 18, 2006

Although my F3 never needed repairs I know of a few folks who did have issues with the electonics, its not just a dead battery its a dead camera, having a hand held meter is of little help. When on assigment in some of the more remote parts of the world haveing a dead camera is a real big deal. I thought the F3 handled better than either the F or F2, but I always carried a Lica or Cannon Rangefinder for back up.

copake_ham · Aug 18, 2006

Paul Howell said:
Although my F3 never needed repairs I know of a few folks who did have issues with the electonics, its not just a dead battery its a dead camera, having a hand held meter is of little help. When on assigment in some of the more remote parts of the world haveing a dead camera is a real big deal. I thought the F3 handled better than either the F or F2, but I always carried a Lica or Cannon Rangefinder for back up.

Paul,

I'm a bit confused here. The F3 can be operated as a totally manual camera. Yes, you would need an external meter (or rely on good old Mr. Sunny 16). But how would having a RF backup change anything? If it too is totally manual then it would have no built-in meter either.

Craig · Aug 18, 2006

copake_ham said:
Paul,

I'm a bit confused here. The F3 can be operated as a totally manual camera.

No, it can't . If the battery dies in an F3 all you have is 1/80 as a mechanical speed, plus B I think, but I can't remember from when I had mine.

PhotoJim · Aug 18, 2006

The F3 can be operated without batteries... just not at all speeds. Given the small probability of battery failure, this isn't that horrible.

Bear in mind that the F3 has two power sources, if you have an MD-4 motor drive: the motor drive batteries power the camera when they are working, and the camera's button cell takes over if the motor drive batteries die.

I live in a pretty cold part of the world (well, it's warm in summer but winters are very cold). I have seen just how dead a camera battery can go. (My F601 would do two rolls at -25 C, and that's it.) I've also learned that those blasted button cells live quite a long time, particularly if you use the lithium DL1/3N cells. You can also get an external battery pack for the F3 (and it works on the FM3a, FM2n, FE, FA, etc.) that will let the camera use a pair of AAs in a case on a cord in your pocket. Since I get years out of button cells, a pair of AAs will run an F3HP for about 20 years.

That having been said, I do tend to use mechanically-timed, battery-independent cameras when it is very cold, just so that I don't have to buy those battery packs and I don't have to worry about how new my batteries are. (A pro would put new batteries into a camera if entering a challenging environment.) I used to prefer them, but I don't anymore; I just appreciate them. I enjoy using mechanically timed stuff. (I'm even wearing a mechanically timed watch at the moment - not because I'm worried about my watch battery dying, but because mechanically timed watches are pretty uncommon these days and I wanted to own one.) The shutters in my battery-dependent cameras are unquestionably more accurate (not that I find that my FM2n and Nikkormat FT3 aren't accurate, but mechanical shutters are never precise, especially at faster speeds). Electronic cameras can certainly suffer electronic failure in the field (mechanical failure is also a risk, but it is at least as much a risk and possibly more of a risk with mechanically-timed cameras.) I have never had this occur; that doesn't mean it won't, but it does mean that the event is unlikely. If electronic cameras were inherently unreliable, pros would still be shooting with F2s, not with autofocus digital wunderkameras.

I get a strange pleasure out of using a 1960s Soviet rangefinder camera, so I understand why people like mechanically-timed cameras. In a harsh climate, in particular when one is far from civilization and getting repairs or new batteries is difficult, I think there are a lot of advantages to them. I also think that carrying an extra DL1/3N in each of my bags is a pretty reasonable trade for the extra shutter speed accuracy and the added functionality.

JohnArs · Aug 18, 2006

My FM2 Titan and the F5 is hard to beat!

Paul Howell · Aug 18, 2006

Craig said:
No, it can't . If the battery dies in an F3 all you have is 1/80 as a mechanical speed, plus B I think,

I do stand corrected, I had forgotten the 1/80 or 1/90 mechanical speed which can used, but an 80th is not very helpful when shooting a war, sporting event, or other fast moving breaking news or shooting in low light. My Cannon (7s) and Lieca (IIIG) worked at all speeds, and the Cannon did have an external meter.

I have never owned a F4, 5 or 6 so I can't comment about their reliability, if I hit the lottery this weekend an F6 is on my shopping list. I tested one when it was first released, great feel, reminds me of the F3. I never needed the interchangable finders.

Sparky · Aug 18, 2006

JohnArs said:
My FM2 Titan and the F5 is hard to beat!

I'd venture that an F would still be operational after being run over by a bus, at least there'd be a 25% chance. I'd really like to see an F5 do that!

Craig · Aug 18, 2006

Paul Howell said:
I have never owned a F4, 5 or 6 so I can't comment about their reliability, if I hit the lottery this weekend an F6 is on my shopping list.

I had an F3, sold it to buy an F4, and I also have an F6. The F4's are worth practically nothing now, so I kept it, rather than sell it at give away prices. So far I've not had any reliability issues with any of them, although the F6 is pretty new so there shouldn't be any issues.

Each is different, and I liked them all for differnt reasons. The F3 is a very traditional camera, and without the motordrive it was pretty light and compact for an SLR. I wasn't keen on the heavily centreweighted light meter, but I loved the feel of the manual film advance, it was such a smooth mechanism. With the dedicated nicad pack freshly charged I could get close to 9 fps out it, and with a friend timing me I managed to shoot and rewind a 36 exposure film in 10 seconds.

The F4 is wonderful from an exposure meter point of view, the matrix is very accurate and difficult to fool. 90% of the time I leave it on matrix metering and program and get great slides. The AF is getting dated and it can have some trouble with moving subjects ( I shoot a lot of trains), espcially if they have large spaces with little contrast, like the side of a locomotive. Generally though I can flip to manual focus and leave the lens at infinity and the results are sharp.

It's a tough camera, mine has fallen off the roof of a truck with a 300 mm lens attached and it was just a bit dusty but worked fine. It was a gravel road that it fell onto, and was fine are I dusted it off. Mine had been backpacked into all sorts of places and used at -40 in winter and it always works as it should.

I like the removable viewfinders of the F3 and F4, as if I'm doing a ground level shot I'll just pop the finder off and use it as a waistlevel finder. I do miss that about the F6, but that's about all I miss.

The F6 is quite a bit smaller and lighter than an F4, or the F3 with motordrive, and doesn't give up anything in terms of performance. The AF is great, although I do find a slight bias toward overexposing slides, compared to the F4. I'm a left eyed photographer, and I do find that my nose tends to change the focus point selection lever on the F6, I need to keep the lock on to prevent it from changing. I'm in the habit of checking it each time I use the camera. if you can afford it, its an improvemt over the F4. I can't speak about the F5 though, I've never used one.

Roger Hicks · Aug 18, 2006

Sparky said:
I'd venture that an F would still be operational after being run over by a bus, at least there'd be a 25% chance. I'd really like to see an F5 do that!

Or possibly even a tank. And was it Page who stopped a bullet with one?

Cheers,

R.

Craig · Aug 18, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
And was it Page who stopped a bullet with one?
R.

I've not seen that, but I do recall a copy of the Canon pro newsletter that showed an F1 that stoped a 7.62mm bullet and kept on working, although the AE function of the finder didn't work anymore. This was during the US invasion of Grenada in 1985.

Lee Shively · Aug 18, 2006

Cameras can take some amazing abuse and continue to work. I was hit at a football game once, came down on an F2 with 180/2.8 attached and watched the front of the camera stay with the lens as it rolled away on the sidelines. If duct tape would have held it together and kept it light tight, the camera would have been good to go--shutter, advance, everything else worked fine. But you can't use a camera when the front half is missing. The lens was fine, I used it to shoot the rest of the game.

Richard Kelham · Aug 19, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
Or possibly even a tank. And was it Page who stopped a bullet with one?

I think it was McCullin who stopped a bullet with his F. Tim Page used his head...

Roger Hicks · Aug 20, 2006

Richard Kelham said:
I think it was McCullin who stopped a bullet with his F. Tim Page used his head...

Page is the only person I've ever met who has been pronounced DOA twice; one motorcycle accident, one 'friendly fire'...

I don't know him well -- met him a few times, not seen him in years -- but I thought I recalled a mutual friend saying Page caught a bullet with an F too.

Cheers,

R.

JohnArs · Aug 20, 2006

My FM2 works up the 1/4000sec. without batteries but then you have to work with the suny 16 roule!
Here in EU they made an ad with a wheel from a mercedes on a Nikon body, but I need a camera as camera and not as a street just my opinion!
I also do not use it as an hammer!!
I did 1 time put my finger in the shutter of my F5 because of an very loud peng which shocked me during a lens change and I still use the same shutter!

Richard Kelham · Aug 20, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
Page is the only person I've ever met who has been pronounced DOA twice; one motorcycle accident, one 'friendly fire'...

I don't know him well -- met him a few times, not seen him in years -- but I thought I recalled a mutual friend saying Page caught a bullet with an F too.

Hi Roger

I met Tim Page once only, and that was more of a "Hi, great to meet you, goodbye" type of thing: we didn't get around to discussing the relative bullet stopping capabilities of cranial bone vs Nikon cameras!

By all accounts an interesting fellow though.

Cheers

Richard

Roger Hicks · Aug 20, 2006

Richard Kelham said:
Hi Roger
I met Tim Page once only . . . By all accounts an interesting fellow though.
Richard

I knew him a little better than that. I'd say he was more sort of fascinating -- and a brilliant photographer, and bloody good writer.

Cheers,

R.

Roger Hicks · Aug 21, 2006

raizans said:
how often do batteries unexpectedly die? i only carry extra batteries when they run low.

How often do they die unexpectedly? In 40 years' experience, regularly.

Also, a lot depends on how many pics you take, how often you meter without taking a picture, and how far from home you are e.g. being in China for 3 weeks is a bit unlike being out for the day.

With many older cameras, the only warning you get that they are running low is when they grow erratic and die.

Cheers,

Roger

Most Rugged, Long Lasting Nikon?

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