Most Rugged, Long Lasting Nikon?

snegron · Aug 17, 2006

fparnold said:
FWIW, I've had an F since 1989 (64xxx serial number, won't mount later Photonic heads), and bought an F2AS when the F's shutter went right before a trip. The F2 has been rebuilt once (before I bought it), and been to the shop twice afterwards to correct some shutter-release issues, and I had the F rebuilt, so they're durable, but not immortal.

When I was in college, both the NYC photographer I worked for and my photographer-boss from the newspaper considered the F2 series to be "hypochondriacs" compared with the F or F3. Therefore, you may wish to consider a late-model F3, or the F5. The original F are a pleasure to use, but they are 40 years old.

I think you nailed my concern right on the head. As your "shutter went before a trip" I am concerned that when I least expect it the shutter will go on any Nikon body I get right when I need it the most. I have plenty of back up cameras in case one or another fails, but my quest is to obtain that one camera model or series that will be there no matter what. Yes, I have plenty of backup cameras at this time, but all are different with controls in different places. When I run out of film on my F3HP, I grab my preloaded F2A and continue shooting. Problem is that there is a momentary readjustment period during that switch from F2A to F3HP that takes time away from capturing the image.

My goal would be to have two camera bodies of the same type that I know would withstand constant daily use. I would like them to be identical so weight, viewfinder, and metering options would be the same no matter which one I would pick up. My concern with older F models is that one might be just several clicks away frome shutter or meter failure. Handheld meters is not an option for me because my style of shooting demands quick action. I can't compose a scene, meter, walk back to my camera, refocus, adjust shutter/aperture, shoot.

firecracker · Aug 17, 2006

snegron said:
I think you nailed my concern right on the head. As your "shutter went before a trip" I am concerned that when I least expect it the shutter will go on any Nikon body I get right when I need it the most. I have plenty of back up cameras in case one or another fails, but my quest is to obtain that one camera model or series that will be there no matter what. Yes, I have plenty of backup cameras at this time, but all are different with controls in different places. When I run out of film on my F3HP, I grab my preloaded F2A and continue shooting. Problem is that there is a momentary readjustment period during that switch from F2A to F3HP that takes time away from capturing the image.

My goal would be to have two camera bodies of the same type that I know would withstand constant daily use. I would like them to be identical so weight, viewfinder, and metering options would be the same no matter which one I would pick up. My concern with older F models is that one might be just several clicks away frome shutter or meter failure. Handheld meters is not an option for me because my style of shooting demands quick action. I can't compose a scene, meter, walk back to my camera, refocus, adjust shutter/aperture, shoot.

Sounds like you already have an answer to yourself. Get a backup for the one you like the most!

Photo Engineer · Aug 17, 2006

My Nikon F has lasted me since 1960 and one of my Nikon ELs just failed last year. The other one is still 'ticking' and taking a licking.

So, match the 46 year lifetime of the F and the 36 year lifetimes of the ELs against anything else you want to mention.

I have 2 2020 bodies. One is dead, dead, dead. The other fails intermittently on humid days. Autofocus has been useless for about 5 years. It still works otherwise with AF turned off.

PE

copake_ham · Aug 17, 2006

I've come to realize that there are two Nikon companies. The company that made the S and F lines and the company that made the plastic-crap.

The former are a line of extremely high quality, metal-bodied cameras. Whether the original rangefinder S-line or the SLR F-line - most of these cameras are probably still in operating condition (even if buried in someone's closet somewhere).

These were the Nikons I always knew and this was the Nikon company that could proudly place itself in the "big leagues" with Leica etc.

But the plastic Nikons are where the money came to be - so by the 1980's (?) the company "diverged" and one side started making plastic-bodied consumer gear - both SLRs (particularly the N-line) and P&S's.

As Nikon has gone digital (and js now just about out of the analog business) they have m/l continued this division.

So if you are speaking "historical", just about any "F" camera will serve you well in terms of durability - you mainly need to determine how many "creature comfort" features you want - with the recoginition that this will result in added weight due to consequent greater battery dependency.

As to my favorite? Without a doubt - the F3HP. While it has a battery need for TTL metering and aperture priority Auto (when you want to use it) it can operate as a completely manual camera. And it is built like the proverbial brick outhouse.

snegron · Aug 17, 2006

I probably should have mentioned originally that my objective is to ultimately have two of the same camera bodies from the same series.

snegron · Aug 17, 2006

"As to my favorite? Without a doubt - the F3HP. While it has a battery need for TTL metering and aperture priority Auto (when you want to use it) it can operate as a completely manual camera. And it is built like the proverbial brick outhouse. "

My main gripe with the F3HP is that the metal covering the outer area of the body is soft. The high copper content makes it bend very easily. I have actually squeezed the viewfinder back into shape with my fingers after a knock. Also, no batteries means only one shutter speed (80). I do admit that the F3HP with MD4 has good ergonomics, weight, overall feel, and proven reliable with a good set of batteries.[/QUOTE]

Karl K · Aug 17, 2006

The Nikon F2 is a hockey puck, according to Marty Forscher

Years ago at a Photo Show in Las Vegas, I met Marty Forscher, the Maven of pro cameras and former owner of Professional Camera Repair in NYC. Marty designed motor drives for Nikon and Leica, and has worked on virtually every 35mm camera ever made. I asked him which 35mm SLR was the strongest and best made. His answer was the Nikon F2. In his opinion, the F2 used the best materials and had the best build quality of any SLR camera. He called it a "hockey puck." The metering, of course, is not going to be accurate forever, but it can be repaired/adjusted by quite a few independent technicians. There are enough spare parts around to last a lifetime. F2 bodies can be bought very cheaply and lenses are all over the place. You don't need AI lenses if you stick to the F2, F2 Photomic, or F2S. The meter batteries are not in the light meter housing, so corrosion is less likely. But if you have AI lenses, they will work perfectly. Lenses without any metering prong will meter correctly in the stop-down mode. Every F2 will accept a motor drive. Every F2 will accept either an F or F2 focusing screen. There is no end to the system. The F2 takes multiple exposures, has bulb and time, long exposures up to 10 seconds, swing open back, locking PC socket, uses a regular cable release with a Leica/Nikon nipple, etc. Don't leave home without one!

copake_ham · Aug 18, 2006

snegron said:
"As to my favorite? Without a doubt - the F3HP. While it has a battery need for TTL metering and aperture priority Auto (when you want to use it) it can operate as a completely manual camera. And it is built like the proverbial brick outhouse. "

My main gripe with the F3HP is that the metal covering the outer area of the body is soft. The high copper content makes it bend very easily. I have actually squeezed the viewfinder back into shape with my fingers after a knock. Also, no batteries means only one shutter speed (80). I do admit that the F3HP with MD4 has good ergonomics, weight, overall feel, and proven reliable with a good set of batteries.

[/QUOTE]

Well then I guess the F3HP is not for you. Good luck with your choice, whatever it is.

Roger Hicks · Aug 18, 2006

Karl K said:
Years ago at a Photo Show in Las Vegas, I met Marty Forscher, the Maven of pro cameras and former owner of Professional Camera Repair in NYC.

I've known Marty for maybe 20 years -- I met him through NPC, because of course he holds the patents on the optical transfer plate Polaroid back -- and my recollection was that he thought the F was stronger. Unfortunately I've not seen him for half a decade or more, and we're not really close enough friends that I could call him and ask him.

But I do recall asking him once what I was going to do if my Nikon Fs wore out. He said, "How many have you got?" I told him: four or five, I've forgotten now. Then he asked, "How old are you?" I told him: 45 or whatever it was at the time. "Ah," he said, "Forget it. They'll outlast you."

Marty can rebuild ANYTHING. In the Civil Rights era he begged cameras from NY professionals; overhauled them; and gave them to Civil Rights photographers. When they came back, soaked with fire-hoses, hit with batons, smashed against the ground in riots, he'd rebuild them so they could be used again.

A very nice guy, with whom I am privileged to have had dinner a few times (with Jim from NPC) but now very old: he must be pushing 90.

Back to the F, I have no metered heads any more, just plain prism. But I do have various hand-held meters, plus 40 years of experience at guessing exposures...

Cheers,

Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com)

Muihlinn · Aug 18, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
Back to the F, I have no metered heads any more, just plain prism. But I do have various hand-held meters, plus 40 years of experience at guessing exposures...

My Nikon F is a early one with a plain prism. Never liked so much the Photomics.
She survived 3 owners, some war assignments in Africa, 15 years of travelling in a sailing boat, and a intensive alpine climbing use after all previous pushes. Still working fine, I don't think that this can be matched by any other (and also excellent) Fs except perhaps the F2.

My only doubt is if the Nikonos II is even more rugged... apart that #### rewinding knob.

Roger Hicks · Aug 18, 2006

Muihlinn said:
My only doubt is if the Nikonos II is even more rugged... apart that #### rewinding knob.

I once fell off my motorcycle at about 20-30 km/h with a Nikonos in my pocket, landed on the camera, and ground about 4mm off the front of the lens mount (after grinding right through the metal lens cap) while skidding down the road. Camera still worked fine. You're right: they're incredibly strong. Alas, a friend dropped it over the side in shark-infested water a year or two ago.

There are however two reasons I've not replaced it. One is camera shake: I found it the least stable camera I've ever owned. The other was on the advice of two repairers. Apparently old mechanical Nikonoses are harder and harder to repair, so if they do break, they are probably write-offs. Also, it's next to impossible (I'm told) to keep the viewfinder waterproof any more, once it starts to go.

Cheers,

Roger

Muihlinn · Aug 18, 2006

The peculiar shutter release has a lot to do with stability, anyway there is a few things that, well thought, have little sense in that design like having slow shutter speeds, hence that you should use a flash underwater almost everytime, why bother with speeds slower than flash sync? (apart B, indeed). Given the useless of the viewfinder wearing a diving mask, why not include a sport finder instead a viewfinder?

I bought mine after missing my old -and sold- one, just because I liked, but I understand that those cameras will be here only while they last working. their population never was a wide as F, their spare parts are long gone, and their population and use is thinning.

After all, who said that anything should last forever? 35 years at this time it's a long and good run.

Roger Hicks · Aug 18, 2006

Muihlinn said:
After all, who said that anything should last forever? 35 years at this time it's a long and good run.

Very true. But my 100-year-old Gandolfi is still working and reparable...

As for your other observations, I mostly used mine out of water, without a mask: not as an underwater camera, primarily, but in places where a completely waterproof/submersible camera made sense. I thought of buying another to photograph spas, especially in Eastern Europe, but instead use ordinary cameras and keep them out of the water.

Cheers,

R.

Nick Zentena · Aug 18, 2006

snegron said:
but my quest is to obtain that one camera model or series that will be there no matter what. .

Obvious answer. Pinhole.

Everything breaks. It's not a question of if but when. Keep the stuff tuned up. Or keep enough back ups.

Muihlinn · Aug 18, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
Very true. But my 100-year-old Gandolfi is still working and reparable...

A totally different kind of beast, despite old LF cameras aren't as simple as they seem, they aren't as mechanically intrincate as 35mm are., and you always can change a shutter -or lens cap- for a newer one.

Roger Hicks said:
As for your other observations, I mostly used mine out of water, without a mask: not as an underwater camera, primarily, but in places where a completely waterproof/submersible camera made sense. I thought of buying another to photograph spas, especially in Eastern Europe, but instead use ordinary cameras and keep them out of the water.

Given your intended use and the prices that they're selling now (mine was only $150, complete, overseas shipping included) you can find a good cared one, give it an overhaul and forget about the viewfinder sealing for many many years . It wouldn't be an issue unless it's totally off or the water presure doesn't go beyond 3 bars.

catem · Aug 18, 2006

roteague said:
The original poster was looking for opinions on the "professional" Nikon line. That isn't to say the FM3 was strong or tough, or even used by professionals.

Everyone has their favourites!

In defense of the FM line, I was told by a working pro when I bought my FM2n some years ago that I'd bought a camera that was prized by many working profesionals (doesn't that make it a "professional" camera?).

All it lacks is the furls and furbellows, if you can do without those the FM's can't really be bettered, especially if it's ruggedness & longevity you're after (less to go wrong) - after all it's the lenses that go with it that really make the difference, the camera's just a box. The key is what sort of photography you do, and if you don't need the frills, they're great. Though I do like the aperture-priority on my FM3A for faster work.
Cate

Richard Kelham · Aug 18, 2006

I still have my first F bought second-hand just before I went to art school in 1969. It still works perfectly, though it is in semi-retirement now after a hard life. My Fs (I have 2) 'feel' more solid than my F3, and much more so than a plasticky F90X. I've not tried any of the newer ones F4/5/6 as I have an innate distrust of camera electronics, probably born of being too lazy to read instruction books...

Roger Hicks · Aug 18, 2006

Muihlinn said:
Given your intended use and the prices that they're selling now (mine was only $150, complete, overseas shipping included) you can find a good cared one, give it an overhaul and forget about the viewfinder sealing for many many years . It wouldn't be an issue unless it's totally off or the water presure doesn't go beyond 3 bars.

Excellent point. I didn't mention to the repairers how I intended to use it. I'll start looking. Thanks very much indeed -- why didn't I think as clearly as this to begin with?

Cheers,

Roger

Uncle Bill · Aug 18, 2006

It would have to be the Nikon F and F2 for me. To get around the meter issue, find an eyelevelprism and use a handheld meter.

Bill

Paul Howell · Aug 18, 2006

I used the F F2 and F3 as a working photojournalist, I found the F3 to handle better and the motor drive was excellent, but the F2 was very durable and not battery dependent. If you need a motor drive I would recommend the F3, otherwise the F2.

copake_ham · Aug 18, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
.....Alas, a friend dropped it over the side in shark-infested water a year or two ago......

Cheers,

Roger

You could have easily retrieved it.

1) Drop said "friend" into shark-infested waters.

2) While sharks are "otherwise occupied" with your friend you could have discretely recovered the Nikonos!

TheFlyingCamera · Aug 18, 2006

Most of the time, for most sharks, you as an adult human are just way too big a meal, and they're not going to bother. That is, of course, unless you're going in to the water with bloody scrapes or sores. I've gone snorkelling in Belize and in the Florida Keys several times now and every time I've been in the water, I've been around multiple sharks, some bigger than me. For the most part, its a case of leave me alone and l'll leave you alone. Same with barracudas.

df cardwell · Aug 18, 2006

Each successive version of the Nikon F series has built upon the first.

Yes, my late '60s F still works. Used it just the other day. So, where's the logic that the newer bodies are inferior ? Mmm ?

My the time the F2 rolled around, many problems of the F were ironed out. The F2 was pronounced a hockey puck. Yes. And the F3s proved even more reliable. More precise, and better hockey pucks.

The F4 was a big improvement. It is still the best manual focus camera ever made ( excepting the leica R8 + R9 ).

Of my two favorite camera technicians ( Steve Grimes and Marty F ), one has died, and the other is 90. That should be a cautionary observation for anybody contemplating buying an F. Everything breaks, al mechanical stuff needs a cleanup. Like my 1976 Volvo. It runs great. No parts, and a 60 minute drive to the guy that can repair it better than I. Where is the wisdom of buying a 30 or 40 year old camera if you want ultimate relaibility ? The first hing you'll do, if you buy a clean one, is have it taken apart and put back together , and you'd better pay a bunch if you want it done right.

There is still a knee-jerk dislike of battery powered cameras - and it's hard for me to not express it myself. I was suspicious at the start, remembering the awful electronic cameras of the '60s. But the technology grew up, and by the mid '80s there was no more question. The better cameras had superiour shutter performance than the best shutter checkers could measure consistently.

SO, WHAT IF THE BATTERY DIES ? As my friend Dante Stella explained it to me, "You replace the battery, Einstein". Damn kid. But he's right. If Conservative design had it's way, we'd still be using be using good old 19th century, wood burning steam engines. Mature technology.

Here's the reasoning FOR batteries:
http://www.dantestella.com/technical/mechanical.html

But the duty cycle of an F5 is measured in photographer's lifetimes, not rolls of film. It's the best there has ever been ( excluding the F6 ). It'll probably NEVER need to see the shop.

Roger Hicks · Aug 18, 2006

copake_ham said:
You could have easily retrieved it.

1) Drop said "friend" into shark-infested waters.

2) While sharks are "otherwise occupied" with your friend you could have discretely recovered the Nikonos!

Alas, I wasn't there at the time. I have only his word that it was shark-infested.

Cheers,

R.

Claire Senft · Aug 18, 2006

I do agree that the Nikon F 5 is the best of theNikon line..for me better than the F6.

The 6x full frame viewer almost had me buying it. 6x maginification and full screen viewing is really nice for a tripod user.

For my own money the only manual camera that is better is the Contax RTSIII...sorry about that Don.

Most Rugged, Long Lasting Nikon?

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