Moskva 5 - Self timer and focus wheel woes

ObsidianLycan · Jul 6, 2023

Hi everyone, I just picked up a Moskva 5 so just getting to grips with the anatomy (please forgive me if I use incorrect wording). The poor thing has some issues, it seems. Firstly, I think the shutter is cocked and held by the self timer (which, appears to be stuck and not releasing it). It is all the way over to the left and only moves a few mm between cocking and release if I fire the shutter. I applied a little downward pressure, to try and force the timer to "start" but it seems very locked in place.

Secondly, the front focus is locked at infinity and won't turn. I read this can be stiff if not used for a while, and I have tried a little force but no budging. Am I missing something in assuming the front should turn and focus? I assume it hasn't been used for a while so might need some re-greasing perhaps. EDIT - I fixed this second issue, and unstuck focus ring. It was simply a case of loosening the 3 screws around the ring the tiniest bit. I guess whoever had this before me locked it at infinity! As a bonus, the coupled rangefinder does indeed seem to be working correctly as well, so I will re-calibrate this following guidance in some other posts/guides

koraks · Jul 6, 2023

Welcome to Photrio!

Shutters like these can become stuck, especially if they haven't been used on a regular basis for a long time. In some cases, 'wiggling about' a bit with the shutter speed ring and the shutter release gets things going, after which it's a matter of exercising it until it's smooth again. But in many cases, the old-fashioned CLA is the only thing that really helps.

ObsidianLycan · Jul 6, 2023

koraks said:
Welcome to Photrio!

Shutters like these can become stuck, especially if they haven't been used on a regular basis for a long time. In some cases, 'wiggling about' a bit with the shutter speed ring and the shutter release gets things going, after which it's a matter of exercising it until it's smooth again. But in many cases, the old-fashioned CLA is the only thing that really helps.

Thanks for the warm welcome!

Ah yes I have tried wiggling it, but I think its to do with the broken self timer. I can cock and release the shutter no problem, but it only travels a few mm then stops on whatever the self timer has placed in the way of the lever path.

Also noob question - CLA?

koraks · Jul 6, 2023

Yes, that doesn't sound too encouraging and I'm afraid some mild surgery might be necessary. But working on shutters is not for the faint of heart! You know those cartoons, where someone opens up a clock and springs jump all over the place and whatnot? Well, this is it

CLA = Clean, Lube & Adjust. Although the 'lube' part is often not necessary and usually not advisable in the case of shutters.

Undoubtedly someone(s) will come along with some more useful advice on working on these shutters - just stay put!

ObsidianLycan · Jul 6, 2023

koraks said:
Yes, that doesn't sound too encouraging and I'm afraid some mild surgery might be necessary. But working on shutters is not for the faint of heart! You know those cartoons, where someone opens up a clock and springs jump all over the place and whatnot? Well, this is it

CLA = Clean, Lube & Adjust. Although the 'lube' part is often not necessary and usually not advisable in the case of shutters.

Undoubtedly someone(s) will come along with some more useful advice on working on these shutters - just stay put!

Ah this is the exact image I have in my head; springs flying everywhere and an explosion of tiny screws. I haven't disassembled a lens yet. I was quite pleased with myself for taking apart tiny 16mm Kiev 30 and 303 and successfully fixing light leaks. But lenses I think are something else! I did find the Kiev Survival Guide strip down (https://web.archive.org/web/20130122071907/http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/Moskva5.html) and broke out in a cold sweat!

Also found this which is a similar state to where I am https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/moskva-5-jammed-shutter-after-using-self-timer.142808/. Although my shutter button is attached, when I press down on the shutter cocking lever to try and free the thing it doesn't want to move (and I am aware there is a limit to how hard I should be forcing this, before it goes from stuck to even more broken!).

I will sit tight, and await rescue by some kind and knowledgeable soul(s)

reddesert · Jul 6, 2023

It's not unusual for the self timer to get sticky and thus lock up a shutter (self timer of doom). The self timer is a mechanical escapement like the slow speed mechanism but even slower. Sometimes, if you can drip a little bit of electronic contact cleaner (the kind that evaporates quickly with zero-residue) into the self timer, that can free it up to complete its cycle. Then never cock it again.

ObsidianLycan · Jul 6, 2023

reddesert said:
It's not unusual for the self timer to get sticky and thus lock up a shutter (self timer of doom). The self timer is a mechanical escapement like the slow speed mechanism but even slower. Sometimes, if you can drip a little bit of electronic contact cleaner (the kind that evaporates quickly with zero-residue) into the self timer, that can free it up to complete its cycle. Then never cock it again.

Thanks for your reply. Sounds like a good idea to try, before looking at more drastic measures! Would 99% isopropyl alcohol be a good thing to try? I have that, but I can get some contact cleaner if needs be.

Dan Daniel · Jul 6, 2023

ObsidianLycan said:
EDIT - I fixed this second issue, and unstuck focus ring. It was simply a case of loosening the 3 screws around the ring the tiniest bit. I guess whoever had this before me locked it at infinity! As a bonus, the coupled rangefinder does indeed seem to be working correctly as well, so I will re-calibrate this following guidance in some other posts/guides

Just to be safe, while you are rotating the focus dial make certain that the front lens element is actually turning? By loosening the three set screws you may have simply unlocked the dial from the lens itself. The dial is what moves the rangefinder mechanism so if it is moving the rangefinder will react but that does not mean that the lens itself is actually focusing.

The dial should move in and out maybe 2-3mm as it is rotated. If it is not moving in and out and the lens itslef is not moving, you will need to keep going on this process. Take some phoots, make some notes on the alignment of the lens- use lettering as index points- and be prepared to remove the front element, clean the grease, and reinstall while getting the lens back in the same position.

Dan Daniel · Jul 6, 2023

ObsidianLycan said:
Thanks for your reply. Sounds like a good idea to try, before looking at more drastic measures! Would 99% isopropyl alcohol be a good thing to try? I have that, but I can get some contact cleaner if needs be.

People will disagree on what to use. I'd recommend picking up a small bottle of lighter fluid at the drug store. This is naphtha, white gas.

Now someone else will say not to use this and use something else... If you use electronoc cleaner from a spray can, spray it into the lid cap and take it from there, not spray directly into the shutter. The slot where the cocking lever jslides is a good starting point. DROPS! Not pour, drip!

ObsidianLycan · Jul 6, 2023

Dan Daniel said:
Just to be safe, while you are rotating the focus dial make certain that the front lens element is actually turning? By loosening the three set screws you may have simply unlocked the dial from the lens itself. The dial is what moves the rangefinder mechanism so if it is moving the rangefinder will react but that does not mean that the lens itself is actually focusing.

The dial should move in and out maybe 2-3mm as it is rotated. If it is not moving in and out and the lens itslef is not moving, you will need to keep going on this process. Take some phoots, make some notes on the alignment of the lens- use lettering as index points- and be prepared to remove the front element, clean the grease, and reinstall while getting the lens back in the same position.

You are right! I think I just unscrewed the dial. The rangefinder moved ok but I don't see any movement of the dial or lens in and out. So it isn't focussing, another thing to fix

M-88 · Jul 6, 2023

These cameras are pretty old and Soviet lubricants were far from perfect. Heck, they were far from "good" and far from "okay". Lens helicoid getting stuck is a common occurrence in cameras of 65+ years of age that have never been serviced. I had to remove the front lens element, clean it and re-lube on mine, to make it work again. Of course this involves collimating (adjusting) the focus after re-assembly just so it focuses corfectly.

P.S. If you go down the path of disassembly, DO NOT remove the small rangefinder circle. You know, the one you flip out when you unfold the camera. It's a real pain to readjust it.

Dan Daniel · Jul 6, 2023

M-88 said:
P.S. If you go down the path of disassembly, DO NOT remove the small rangefinder circle. You know, the one you flip out when you unfold the camera. It's a real pain to readjust it.

Exactly.

WHen you loosen the three set screws around the lens- be gentle, and don't remove all the way if you can because they are disgustingly small and difficult to find and to start and they are one of the worst engineered things you will find on cameras- there will come a point where the dial will lift forward and off. Best to turn the dial to infinity first. Now the ONLY thing you want to do is get the front lens element off. Make a mental/photo note of how far the mount is sitting from the rear element and where a particular mark on the lens sits. Also look around the edge of the front element for set screw marks. Some might be faint divots. Some might be obvious machined holes. ALso check if the holes are located at a true 120 degree 1/3 spacing or if the location is not symmetrical to help with re-installing.

There will be a notch in lower rim that connects to a tab around the lens. That tab connects to the rangefinder and makes that magic happen. Best to simply not touch that tab. Wait until the lens and focus dial are set up before you try anything on the rangefinder.

Moskva 5 - Self timer and focus wheel woes

ObsidianLycan

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Dan Daniel

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Moskva 5 - Self timer and focus wheel woes

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