More quest for grain, mad scientist style

moltogordo · Nov 27, 2014

My quest for grain continues. No, I'm not always doing this, and I do know that by using a roll of FP4 and Extol, or HP5 in HC110 in medium format, I'm going to get nice, fine grained pictures that I like a lot, will print well, and look great framed on the wall. But I'm still searching for the past, when I want a gritty effect.

In the Film Developer Cookbook, it states that Kodak D76 Replenisher can be used as a push developer as long as grain is not a factor. I immediately perked up.

Now, D76R no longer seems to be available, but I have a bottle of quasi-ersatz HC110 Replenisher from the redoubtable Legacy Pro folks. And a bottle of their quasi-ersatz HC110.

I'm wondering what I might expect if I mix up a batch of the Replenisher at 1:5, and slosh a roll of ASA 400 film through it? Anybody tried anything like this?

Thanks again!!

PS - I'm also tempted to mix the Replenisher and Developer half and half, dilute that mixture about 1:5 and give it whirl, too. Maybe I will, and let you know what happens. :alien:

Rick A · Nov 27, 2014

For really gritty photos, shoot a fast film in low light, pushed by at least two stops and develop in Dektol which will give high contrast s well.

gone · Nov 27, 2014

This is Shanghai Pan 100 GP3, developed in Rodinal at 1:25 from a 6x6 camera. It was supposed to be shot at 1/200, but I accidentally had the shutter on B. It's way overexposed. If you ignore the fuzzy image due to camera shake, it's got some interesting grain. But it's Rodinal grain, and I think you can do better. You might like a 135 neg of Tri-X w/ a yellow filter, shot maybe 3-4 stops underexposed, and overdevelop it a little in D76. I say at least 3-4 stops because I often shoot Tri-X at 100 and develop it normally in D76 for a different tonality and still don't get grain issues. You could also try developing Tri-X w/ the 1:1 times, but in 1+1 straight developer. That gives beautiful grain and a nice bite to the image.

The second shot shows what I got on the same roll with better exposure. Big difference. The grain just disappeared.

cl3mens · Nov 27, 2014

Try print developer if you have it. Or buy some, it's cheap. I've done HP5+ in Tetenal Variospeed W 1+9, it's not too bad actually. I'm guessing that Delta 3200 would look awesome in it, it always seem a little flat in regular chemistry.

Some gritty combos I've tried:
HP5+ in paper dev, souped for maybe 45 seconds in darkroom tray ("let's see how fast I can go from exposure to print"). Looked good, nothing exciting
HP5+@800 in paper dev - gritty, nice bite. High contrast. Should experiment more with times. I think I did 2 minutes in 1+9, probably way too much. Had forgotten about the experiment above. Scan: http://upload.smulan.se/NkJ3n4Qj
HP5+ in Rodinal - grainy for sure.
Fomapan 400 in D76 stock - something went wrong and the negs were very thin. Some nice grainy images were rescued when scanning
Delta 3200@6400 in Microphen 1+1 - Grain grain grain

Percieved gritiness/grain is one thing. Pushing mostly manipulates contrast. Scanning a thin negative will give you more grain than scanning a normal. Same goes for wet printing, a thin negative that requires a higher contrast paper will produce a grainier image. Contrast is also important when you are looking for that gritty feeling.

I have three suggestions:
1) Underexpose and develop normally.
2) Use a film with large grain to start with, like Delta 3200. Fomapan 400 could also be something.
3) Gross overdevelopment, preferrably in a harsh developer. Works good for scanning at least

Athiril · Nov 27, 2014

Rodinal 1+100, 2 hour semi-stand with Tri-X at 6400+
6x7cm

Tri-X 51200 Test #1, Beach Night by athiril, on Flickr

It'll be grain as in 35mm

There's also Tri-X in 35mm pushed to 1600 in Rodinal 1+50 with regular agitation, should be very grainy.

David A. Goldfarb · Nov 27, 2014

Tri-X, 35mm, in hot Dektol.

winger · Nov 27, 2014

Tri-X in 35mm, expose it like it's ASA 1000 (maybe add a filter, too), develop normally in Sprint developer or D-76. It'll get you more grain if it's cloudy or if you're inside.

Or find some very expired HIE that doesn't cost the same as a small car, shoot it with a red#25 at f16, 1/125 and develop in Sprint.

moltogordo · Nov 27, 2014

Thanks, guys. I've done the Dektol thing, but in the past. Problem with Tri-X is it's not the same film it used to be. It's nice and smooth, and perhaps the least grainy of the 400s. I had hopes for Fomapan, but alas, it's a good film, too.

I'm going to shoot a roll of Foma 400 again, but at ASA 800 - 1000, cut it in half in the darkroom, and develop one half in Dektol 1:4 and the other in the Replenisher and see how it looks - and go from there.

I've tried the 3200 film route, as well, but that tabular grain doens't have the look I want. I want OLD (1970s) vintage Tri-X in Rodinal quality, or Recording 2475 in HC110 type of thing. I have come closest to what I want so far with the Foma 400 in Rodinal, half frame neg.

I'll continue to battle on.

nworth · Nov 27, 2014

The grain is mostly determined by the film, not the developer. But some developers, especially fine grain developers like D-76 and D-23, hide grain. You want it to show. So start with a grainy film and develop it in something like Rodinol or Dektol that doesn't hide the grain. I haven't tried the Shanghai film, but it seems to qualify, as do probably a few others, particularly the cheap and retro types. Enlarging a lot will increase the grain size on the print, but has other not so nice properties (like less sharpness). Push processing also tends to increase the grain a bit, both inherently and because of the increased contrast.

Athiril · Nov 27, 2014

Well this is some what fine, but I found the the 'grain style' to be very pleasing. Of course, with mostly everything in the higher tones close together tonally.

6x6
Tri-X Aculux 1+9

Crop

Fixcinater · Nov 28, 2014

I got a bunch of expired in '73 35mm Ilford Mk. V cine film on eBay, think this was in HC110 for 10 mins with a coated Elmar:

Cars by Dead Link Removed, on Flickr

Gerald C Koch · Nov 28, 2014

D-76R is probably not going to give you the grin you desire. I have seen some very impressive prints from film developed in D-72 (Dektol). First try 1+2 and then if more grain is desired a more concentrated solution. Developing times will be short however and may be a problem.

moltogordo · Nov 28, 2014

That's nice grain, Atheirll. Smooth and non-intrusive. I'm still looking for intrusive and gritty. I'm getting closer here:

Olympus Pen FT, 70mm f2.0 Zuiko, Fomapan 400, Rodinal 1:50.

And this is what I'm after. This was shot with some old Kodak 2475 Recording film on my Pen FT, 38mm Zuiko. Developed in D76 1:1 I'm trying to duplicate this type of thing, which many would call downright ugly, with modern emulsions and developers. I am getting closer as you can see from the picture above this one, but I've still got a ways to go. I do NOT want to use reticulation, masks, or whatever. I could go to Minox - that might be next. But I'll keep trying. I have very little of this Recording film left.

I do know how to get grain, but the films out now don't do these kinds of things. That's why I asked about the Replenisher. Has anyone gone this route?

To my mind, this type of result suits industrial photography very well. That's what I'll be using it for. Not pretty girls!

moltogordo · Nov 28, 2014

Gerald C Koch said:
D-76R is probably not going to give you the grin you desire. I have seen some very impressive prints from film developed in D-72 (Dektol). First try 1+2 and then if more grain is desired a more concentrated solution. Developing times will be short however and may be a problem.

That's what I'm looking for . . . . I'm planning on trying Dektol 1:4, but I'll start at 1:2. The dilution should give a sharper grain . . . but I am worried about those short developing times. Let's see what happens. I'll try the Foma this way again . . . . I'm quite fond of what it did for me last week.

Fixinator - that's a neat shot!

Lachlan Young · Nov 28, 2014

You really want a very well exposed, fairly flat neg so that you have to print at grade 4 or 5 - will bring out crisp sharp grain, without runaway contrast. I've had good results from FP4 and Plus-X. I'd avoid paper developer unless you really need a major contrast boost - PQ universal has instructions on how to achieve this.

Another route to grain (of a very different sort) is intaglio gravure...

Xmas · Nov 28, 2014

moltogordo said:
That's what I'm looking for . . . . I'm planning on trying Dektol 1:4, but I'll start at 1:2. The dilution should give a sharper grain . . . but I am worried about those short developing times. Let's see what happens. I'll try the Foma this way again . . . . I'm quite fond of what it did for me last week.

Fixinator - that's a neat shot!

Id suggest the developers are not going to make a big difference but Foma 400 on half fame should have plenty of grain in Rodinal.

You could try at 1+25 with a half turn of spiral every 15 seconds, for a short time as you dont need contrast.

Before I get flames the daylight loading Agfa tanks needed this continuous agitation as only 45% of film was ever in solution.

Fixcinater · Nov 28, 2014

Upon re-reading, I see my suggestion/image isn't relevant as it's old production film and not nearly as prominent.

Closest I have come to that Recording film look is Foma 200 which was shot at 800 by mistake, so pushed with lots of agitation. The pretty girl photos didn't look nearly as nice as those industrial scenes.

ic-racer · Nov 28, 2014

A couple kind of obvious things that have not been mentioned. First is paper grain. During the lith printing process, one can emphasize grain in the paper giving grainy results, even with large format negatives. This first example shows a lith print from a very sharp 4x5 negative.

Enlargement, of course emphasizes grain. The best way to encourage the grain is to use very small negatives. This example combines lith printing with the enlargement of a tiny 16mm negative to emphasize grain.

bdial · Nov 28, 2014

Try some Ilford SFX. Expose it with or without a filter, and process it in something like Rodinal or print developer.
To my eye it has grain similar to Tri-X from years ago.

Gerald C Koch · Nov 28, 2014

I forgot to mention Crawley's FX-16 which was specifically designed to produce grain with ISO 400 or greater films. Of course to must be able to mix your own. The formula is probably on APUG and certainly on the web. Some years ago a photographer made quite a splash with photos shot on Kodak Royal-X and developed in Dektol. Can't remember his name but he used models dressed a French nuns with the "flying nun" style coif.

moltogordo · Nov 28, 2014

bdial said:
Try some Ilford SFX. Expose it with or without a filter, and process it in something like Rodinal or print developer.
To my eye it has grain similar to Tri-X from years ago.

Oddly enough, I just loaded a roll into a half-frame camera. Plan on doing it in Rodinal.

Gerald - I have the formula. Not much of a chemist, but I'm more than willing to go that route, if I have to.

ic racer - I'm using an Olympus Pen FT, and I also will resort to a Minox C I have kicking around somewhere. Have not really played with it.

Thanks to all for your suggestions. I'll try as many as practical - bottom line is I'm having a blast.

cliveh · Nov 28, 2014

How about this for a grainy gutsy shot:-

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...rom-the-frontline-by-army-photographers-87713

moltogordo · Nov 28, 2014

Some incredible shots for sure, but I don't see any obvious grain - they all look pretty fine to me - none of them impresses me as being particularly grainy. Maybe I was looking at the wrong one?

I'm thinking "Mechanics Illustrated" 1955, or "Electronics World" 1938 type of thing.

David Allen · Nov 28, 2014

And you like this level of grain that you are seeking?

Damned strange is all I can say

David.
ww.dsallen.de

moltogordo · Nov 28, 2014

David Allen said:
And you like this level of grain that you are seeking?

Damned strange is all I can say

David.
ww.dsallen.de

Oh, not for everything. But for about 6 or 7 shots I'm planning. It's like having a tube of bizarre, off the wall watercolor you're only going to use once or twice. Also an exercise of discovery. Like a chef I know once who tried to combine pumpkin, chocolate and bacon. He was successful in a soufle! He also made a successful (in his restaurant) bran muffin with beets in it rather than fruit. :confused:

As you say, damned strange!

More quest for grain, mad scientist style

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