More on Kodak

Donald Qualls said:

That's an interesting statement from one of the original union busters, who went so far as to bring in armed guards who actually shot striking steel mill workers (with guns, not cameras) who had only wanted better wages for their grueling and very hazardous job.

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There is an assumption here that every strike ALWAYS takes place for one reason .. the "workers want more money." As in all sweeping generalizations, this is not *usually* the case. If I remember this strike had, as its purpose, CONTROL and authority over what was happening. At the time Unions were generally not favored by any management -- the idea was that Management would lose control of the business, bit by bit, by giving up too much to the uninformed workers.

Interesting to track the position of the companies that succumb to the demands (or compromise to) the demands of the collective workers. Whether they like it or not, they invariably enjoy a greater level of profits/ success as a result, on the bottom line.

I've been thinking of the "Tenured Professor" situation. What has to be addressed, in even this case, is the level of success of the University/ College.

Do these "slackers" operate in failing institutions?

Of course, driving down second avenue in Pittsburgh and seeing the miles long parking lot that was once a steel mill reminds me of how successful the union was in that case.

The 13 week paid vacation and a few other benefits bankrupt the mills, and the 6 month long strike impoverished the workers for a small raise. You don't have to tell me, I lived through some pretty hard times there watching it all happen.

OTOH, I've seen good things from unions, so they are a double edged sword just like many things. You have to use them properly or you lose rather than gain.

I'm afraid greed is available in good quantity to both the managers and the workers. At least that is what I have seen.

PE.

Photo Engineer said:

Of course, driving down second avenue in Pittsburgh and seeing the miles long parking lot that was once a steel mill reminds me of how successful the union was in that case.

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The LAST thing I want to do is trivialize the pain, mutually shared by ALL, with the steel mill's slide into the tubes. Real PAIN. I've been caught in a similar scenario, myself.

One question ... were there reductions in pay and benefits - and vacation times (either by management fiat, or by retiring/ getting rid of, in one way or another, those with extended seniority) before the final door closing?

Chances are that did happen, as a last ditch effort to save the company. It usually does, with the best of intentions. The trouble is that strategy has NEVER worked.

The short answer is "NO".

The mill's decline went on as the unions made more and more demands, and management was literally forced to comply to stay in business.

Suddenly, no more mills in Pittsburgh with wholesale layoffs and closings. The end was quite abrupt. Those mills that survived elsewhere in the US used more modern automated equipment and had very few workers to tend that equipment, thus making production much more efficient, but it was too little too late.

The more modern Japanese steel mills (rebuilt with our money after we flattened them) were cranking out cheap steel with cheap labor and govt. subsidies. The newest plants were highly automated as well and many Japanese lost their jobs. Only there, if you do that (either management or worker bee) your exit is rather spectacular and messy. More than one manger or worker guilty of a severe error (or no job) ended up a victim of a tradition called seppuku. Our newspapers featured stories at that time.

To some extent this has happened across the board in all US industry. We are now converting into a service based economy, and if this trend is not halted (along with the trade deficit) the dollar will have to be devalued, and eventually the US will begin the slide into second or third world status as it becomes unable to support its current life style due to the demands for higher wages and the balance of trade.

Today, most high-tech jobs and menial labor is done by immigrant labor in the US. Both of these ends are not unionized, although good work has been done to unionize the fruit pickers. Some of them were literally forced to work in fields where spraying by insecticides were causing severe illness if not death. It was some time before it was recognized that malathion (deemed relatively safe) was oxidizing in the field to malaoxon which is deadly to humans. Union support helped the workers in this and other areas, if I still remember all of this correctly.

I might add that talking to a broad cross section of middle managers from a number of fortune 500 companies, I have come to this conclusion. Kodak may be making a LOT of mistakes, but the management is well meaning, humane, and one of the most ethical group of managers in any of those top companies. That is one reason that Kodak has remained non-union and that it has a high degree of loyalty from its employees.

PE

Ed Sukach said:

I've been thinking of the "Tenured Professor" situation. What has to be addressed, in even this case, is the level of success of the University/ College.

Do these "slackers" operate in failing institutions?

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Q: What's the difference between a C grade at Yale and the same at a State university?

A: You have to work for the C at the State university.

Why not farm out all the manufacturing jobs to foreign countries. Make them responsible for poor quality control. No union worries there – there are none. Just push the button and order the product. Ebay has the best idea – no inventory or labor to contend with. Every posting brings cash, all done by computer without human intervention. The only expenses are computer and internet costs, IT and attorney contracts.

One thing troubling me is that it seems that “no one” wants to work any more. I see lots of manual laborers working hard (electricians, carpenters, plumbers, roofers, gardeners, etc. But their supervisors seem to want to perform their duties by automation and remote control. A lot of this attitude is created by the operations of “The Government” as they try desperately to make everyone’s job completely free of responsibility. I.e. every time something “screws up”, some legislator will come up with another directive covering his/their arse. Pretty soon there are so many “laws”, directives, policies, etc. that “no one” is ever responsible for anything. On sails the ship while the crew sits in the wardroom drinking coffee – radar on remote and no one giving new direction but only reacting to perceived threats.

The good captain will be ever vigilant to changes in conditions both inside and outside his ship. He will take care of each situation as they occur and strive to predict future situations and plan accordingly. This takes courage and fortitude – both of which seem to be missing in today’s supervisors and planners. The “bottom line” seems to be applicable only to themselves – never for the ship or the crew – or even for their clients.

dr bob said:

Why not farm out all the manufacturing jobs to foreign countries. Make them responsible for poor quality control. No union worries there – there are none. Just push the button and order the product.

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Sure. It's not just manufacturing. Let me tell you, the next time an imported M.D. is assigned to my case, I'm voting with my feet. When a doctor can't even speak proper English, and brings his third-world attitude to the bedside, he's not doing the medical profession any good.

Just push a button. Put American laborers and craftsmen out of work, or kill one due to crappy medical practice.

dr bob said:

The good captain will be ever vigilant to changes in conditions both inside and outside his ship. He will take care of each situation as they occur and strive to predict future situations and plan accordingly. This takes courage and fortitude – both of which seem to be missing in today’s supervisors and planners. The “bottom line” seems to be applicable only to themselves – never for the ship or the crew – or even for their clients.

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WELL said, especially the line about courage and fortitude. But ..."Seems" to be lacking?

How well I remember the quote from J. Paul Getty, "You want to be successful? Look around, and see what everyone else is doing. Then .. don't do that."

The Finns have a name for that .. it is called "sisu." Winston Churchill once defined "sisu" as "Testicular Fortitude."

WE NEED that now ... not only is business but everywhere - especially in our Governments.

Photo Engineer said:

The short answer is "NO".
The mill's decline went on as the unions made more and more demands, and management was literally forced to comply to stay in business.
Suddenly, no more mills in Pittsburgh with wholesale layoffs and closings. The end was quite abrupt. Those mills that survived elsewhere in the US used more modern automated equipment and had very few workers to tend that equipment, thus making production much more efficient, but it was too little too late.

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I did not say the unions were totally blameless.

Are you SURE there were NO attempts by management to cut labor costs? That would be unusual and surprising ... and the first time I've heard of a precipitous abandonment to failure - for the SOLE purpose of keeping the Union/s happy.

If labor costs are so important ... what fraction of manufacturing costs of an automobile does labor represent, anyway? - Why are so many foreign manufacturers operating plants in the United States? Honda, Mercedes, Toyota...

The more modern Japanese steel mills (rebuilt with our money after we flattened them) were cranking out cheap steel with cheap labor and govt. subsidies. The newest plants were highly automated as well and many Japanese lost their jobs....

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I was fortunate enough to talk to someone with first hand information about the Japanese recovery and their success after the War - G. Edwards Deming - Sent to Japan upon request of MacArthur to aid in reestablishing their industries. No, it wasn't done as you suggest - at least not in the recovery stage, when Deming was there.
The two most significant actions were the decision of the Japanese to nearly eliminate their severe caste system - a conscious decision to modify their social structure; and rating everything in manufacturing - labor, machines everything - at 80% of their capacity -- I could go on, but enough is enough.

Of course there were efforts to 'work out' the steel mills problems, but it was easier to just close them and move operations to the new automated plants elsewhere. Some workers were given the option to relocate, others were not. This was a very rapid transition that left small towns almost empty of industry. I have pictures of the empty plants and big parking lots along the Monongahela river from Clairton to Pittsburgh. Among others, the worlds largest seamless tube mill closed rather abruptly after a large expansion and modernization. They did not move elsewhere AFAIK, the Japanese industry took over.

As far as Japan is concerned, where did the money to rebuild come from? The USA.

As for the caste system, it still exists. The system is built into Japanese and you see it when the people bow and still prostrate themselves on the street when the Emperor's limousine drives by in downtown Tokyo. At least that is what took place when Hirohito was alive, and when I last visited Tokyo.

I have seen the Hachioji steel mills and the Konishiroku Photo plant next to them with my own eyes. The mills were flattened during the bombing of Japan and rebuilt from nothing afterwards with our financing.

Japanese plants in the US are productive for one reason. High levels of automation reduce the levels of manpower needed to run them. Many parts are made in Japan and the final assembly only takes place in the US. Therefore the savings is still part of the equation.

In addition, it is not unknown for Japanese laborers to work 24 hour shifts with a cot next to the production line for naps. Their wives or gfs bring in fresh clothing and food. They had a saying that translates loosely 'we have to do this to stay ahead of the US'.

Deming had a great influence on improving Japanese quality control. That was his major reason for assisting them.

I came upon a group of Japanese engineers at COMDEX once looking at a computer display. They blocked the aisle and were talking. They said approximately "hey this is good and it was made in America". It made me feel rather sad. BTW, the comparable Japanese product was good, came out a year later or so by reverse engineering, and was less expensive by a rather large margin.

Just to stay on-topic, much Fuji film and paper is coated in Japan and the master rolls are slit and chopped here in the US. Some of the accrued advantage is shipping a Japanese product from the US to other parts of the world, as trade restrictions between the US and the rest of the world is often less than between Japan and the rest of the world (AFAIK and remember - it has been a few years since I researched this so things may have changed).

PE

Photo Engineer said:

... As for the caste system, it still exists.

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Of COURSE it does. Please re-read what I have written: NEARLY eliminate the *intense* caste system - and this is more true in the Industrial settings than on the street. I did not say ENTIRELY eliminate. It was a MAJOR reduction in the barriers between worker and supervisor, in comparison to what went on before.

The Japanese have been known to work 24 hours a day. Amazing!! Do you want me to count the times I have done that, here in the USA, working on the Space Program?

Someday, if I have the energy, I'll write about the largest FIASCO I've ever seen of heard about - the relocation of a manufacturing line to one of the "Third World" Countries to save labor costs. "They'll work of $2.50 a DAY!!!" But -- they could make the same amount of money harvesting bananas ... so the work force was severely unstable... and there were *no* funds for training.
Eight months and $$$$$ later, the parent company had all in-process work shipped to home base. We didn't even bother opening all the boxes - just took them to the nearest landfill and dumped it all.

How many times does the average line auto worker work 24 hours / day?

Of course there are people everywhere who work long hours, but the proportion of Japanese doing it is much higher than here and it has lead to the high suicide rate that has been documented in the press. Japanese are very stressed out due to this pressure, and the peer pressure is part of the residual caste system.

It is hard to eliminate and still exists as a strong force, particularly in the countryside. The reason it is hard to eliminate is partly due to the language which has so many words relating to cast. In fact, when I speak the language, I am always cognizant of the term "me ue" and "me shita" or above my eyes (upper caste) and below my eyes (lower caste) implying 3 casts, upper, equal and lower.

I am also quite aware of the fact that women in Japan speak differently than men using entirely different verb inflections related to their lower caste in society.

And so a man would say "yoi otenki desu" (good weather) and a woman being lower caste and deferential would say "yoi otenki desho, ne" (probably good weather, don't you think) in approximate translation. One Japanese instructor (a woman) had a hard time teaching men, as she had to speak using the male verb forms, and she was trained to never do this in polite society.

I'm aware of similar fiascos to yours, seeing that after one large company relocated to Maylasia, their electronic equipment had an astounding 20% out of box failure rate.

I suggest that you search this forum and other photo forums for people complaining about Eastern European films. They complain about soft emulsions, grain, streaks, curl and other problems. Having film made by non-first line companies wherever they are is chancy too.

PE

Jeez....I wish Kodak would hurry up and die & take this thread with it!

Actually, labor is the largest percentage of costs for most businesses.
The hourly wage or salary is a small part. Consider health care, pensions, contributions to match social security, unemployment insurance contributions to the state, liability coverage for the company and costs or training replacement workers or new hires. The costs excelerated dramatically in the 80s as businesses became the provider for health insurance coverage which in turn started the cylcle of spiraling health care costs.

Uh, I think pharamaceutical companies, technology advances in medical imaging, etc. and the for-profit health care organizations are the real drivers in higher medical costs. Whether a company partially or fully funds a health plan is immaterial. But this is way OT now.

Earl Dunbar said:

Uh, I think pharamaceutical companies, technology advances in medical imaging, etc. and the for-profit health care organizations are the real drivers in higher medical costs. Whether a company partially or fully funds a health plan is immaterial. But this is way OT now.

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The consumer, single person or a business that provides medical coverage, determines the cost. As long as business pays the premiums the insurance provider will pay for all the new technology. The insurance companies simply pass along the costs in higher premiums. As long as the costs can continue to be passed along, pharmas, and tech companies will increase their prices.

Eventually, most employers will have to bail out of providing health care or provide a very minimum coverage, similar to what is beginning to happen with pension plans.

What the market will bear, yes. But pharmas, equipment providers, etc., could voluntarily elect to take a lower profit in the interest of health and the common good for an essential service. "Your health is our obscene profit" is not exactly the hallmark of a civilized culture.

Earl

Jim Chinn said:

The consumer, single person or a business that provides medical coverage, determines the cost. .

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Not quite. The insurance companies deal with the billing to bring it down - for them. Example, the surgery to reattach my thumb was billed at about $19,000. The final bill was $8000 because the insurance company negotiated it down. They always do that with big bills.

The insurance companies determine what's paid out. They determine how they will bill anyone, including you. The insurance companies have more money than the government! It's true. Sad.

(I did tell them just to trim the dangler off and let me go thumbless, but they drugged me and next thing I knew I was in surgery. Drugged me! No kidding. One is not competent with a head full of morphine.)

But their days are limited. A single-health plan is in your children's future.

jjstafford said:

One is not competent with a head full of morphine.)

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Only time Organic Chemistry made sense in college was post kidney stone, with me on Morphine. So I guess the old addage of better living through chemistry has a double meaning.