more expensive the gear the better the photographer?

pdeeh · Aug 19, 2014

Hmmm I don't often disagree with you john, but there is something to be said for feeling comfortable enough with your (camera, car, carving knife, sewing machine ...) that using it doesn't get in the way of the purpose of using it.

There is a sense that (for some people perhaps) having something they consider "best" allows them to relax into doing what they want to do without feeling bugged by what they are using to do it. That might let them produce "better" pictures, if the device in question is a camera.

Or maybe it's something to do with an experience of early weaning and thus always trying to find once again the missing breast?

One of the two anyway.

As for BMW drivers, the less said about them the better ...

benjiboy · Aug 19, 2014

pdeeh said:
Hmmm I don't often disagree with you john, but there is something to be said for feeling comfortable enough with your (camera, car, carving knife, sewing machine ...) that using it doesn't get in the way of the purpose of using it.

There is a sense that (for some people perhaps) having something they consider "best" allows them to relax into doing what they want to do without feeling bugged by what they are using to do it. That might let them produce "better" pictures, if the device in question is a camera.

Or maybe it's something to do with an experience of early weaning and thus always trying to find once again the missing breast?

One of the two anyway.

As for BMW drivers, the less said about them the better ...

There's a story in the U.K that the reason that so many criminals drive B.M.W's is that they have small steering wheels, so are easier to drive with handcuffs on

Richard S. (rich815) · Aug 19, 2014

Sort of related: I often talk how they must have changed HC-110's formula around 2-3 years ago. Prior to that I hated it and could never get negs I liked. Now it's probably my most used and favorite developer. I get beautiful negs now. So glad they changed it and made it better.

cliveh · Aug 19, 2014

pdeeh said:
As for BMW drivers, the less said about them the better ...

For the last 14 years I drove a black BMW Z3. I now drive a Fiat 500, does that make me a better person?

removed account4 · Aug 19, 2014

pdeeh said:
Hmmm I don't often disagree with you john, but there is something to be said for feeling comfortable enough with your (camera, car, carving knife, sewing machine ...) that using it doesn't get in the way of the purpose of using it.

There is a sense that (for some people perhaps) having something they consider "best" allows them to relax into doing what they want to do without feeling bugged by what they are using to do it. That might let them produce "better" pictures, if the device in question is a camera.

Or maybe it's something to do with an experience of early weaning and thus always trying to find once again the missing breast?

One of the two anyway.

As for BMW drivers, the less said about them the better ...

i understand the comfort-thing pdeeh and how the top of the line is a work of art as much as a tool / machine and a pleasure to use because every detail is thought of ..
but there is a difference in using something like that THINKING it will make mediocre work that much better ...
sorry for the bmw reference how's this one
its like people who wish they were chefs who buy a set of pro henkle knives and iron clad cookware so they can cook better.
they can barely fry an egg. the 1000$ knives and 2000$ pans i don't think will help much

removed account4 · Aug 19, 2014

cliveh said:
For the last 14 years I drove a black BMW Z3. I now drive a Fiat 500, does that make me a better person?

it depends clive, does it have the onboard passenger side espresso bar, if so, yes much better

Maris · Aug 19, 2014

I'll confirm that people seem to take better pictures with expensive cameras. I used to work in a camera store and when a customer bought a Leica (an M5, it's that far back) and a couple of lenses the technical quality of their snaps showed a quality jump. Why? Not because the camera or lenses were THAT much better but because after dropping five large in a camera shop they were not going to trash their investment by being sloppy about focus or exposure; no way!

Sirius Glass · Aug 19, 2014

Maris said:
I'll confirm that people seem to take better pictures with expensive cameras. I used to work in a camera store and when a customer bought a Leica (an M5, it's that far back) and a couple of lenses the technical quality of their snaps showed a quality jump. Why? Not because the camera or lenses were THAT much better but because after dropping five large in a camera shop they were not going to trash their investment by being sloppy about focus or exposure; no way!

Bin thar
Dun dat

removed account4 · Aug 19, 2014

TXFZ1 · Aug 19, 2014

Dang, now I need 80k for a BMW to get my fishnets. Might as well go buy the Cooke.

David

Alan Klein · Aug 19, 2014

If you're following the speed limit, driving a Ferrari won't get you there quicker than a Volkswagen, but come on, it's a hell of lot more fun. Speaking of cars, did you ever notice how your car drives better after you washed it? The car's cleaner and looks better and sleeker so naturally it drives better. Ever get dressed up, really dressed up? Notice how more confident you are, and act it. The girls notice it too and so does your boss.

jscott · Aug 19, 2014

Some of the expensive pro gear is a little like dating a supermodel. It's pricey, fussy, and you have sort of a love/hate thing going on sometimes. But ..... damn!
No way I'm going back to consumer grade goods after using Leica/Hassy/Rollei/fillintheblank.
It's not necessarily the results, it's the experience.

Old-N-Feeble · Aug 19, 2014

Eliminate as many substandard factors as is practicable and affordable (according to needs and wants). Then we only have two factors left to worry about: 1) Unforeseen equipment failures, 2) Ourselves.

markbarendt · Aug 20, 2014

cliveh said:
I don't quite understand this, as in what way would older equipment not be up to the job?

I truly loved my FM2, great camera, even miss it on occasion.

Then I pick up my F100, point it at something fun, press the focus button, and shoot; nostalgia fades away.

The FM2 could get the job done but I had to work harder to make that happen.

removed account4 · Aug 20, 2014

markbarendt said:
The FM2 could get the job done but I had to work harder to make that happen.

SNIP

sorry to edit what you said mark

but regarding older equipment, chemical photography
and NOT using top of the line ...
i was told there is no point in doing photography if there was no pain
i think what was said to me was " no pain no gain "
yeah i know kind of cliche ..
but if this was true why would anyone use expensive
top of the line image making equipment .... if the point is to gain through pain ?

and expensive leads to no pain ( except the bill if you dont have the $$ to buy or feed it )
so how could anyone advance their work while using it?

this isnt directed to you mark, your sentence reminded me of it ... ...

markbarendt · Aug 20, 2014

jnanian said:
i was told there is no point in doing photography if there was no pain
i think what was said to me was " no pain no gain "

Sorry to snip yours too.

Pain is one way to learn.

I think part of what drives creativity is scarcity. I think of Weston dining on some of his most famous subjects and O'Keefe painting flowers because models were expensive and the flowers wouldn't move.

Old cameras, less automated cameras provide scarcity in certain ways. They force us to understand certain things and that's good.

Once understood though...

Thomas Bertilsson · Aug 20, 2014

I often observe the following:

People buy new cameras, try new films and developers. For a while it's an intellectual challenge, and it's fun to lift the lid to see what's there, and it probably helps shape who we are as artists to a certain degree.
Ever know anybody who wanted to try a Leica for a while but couldn't afford it? I do. I was one of them, and miraculously somebody gave me one for free. I cherished it like a child and even went to stand on street corners, observing, and snapping a picture every now and then.

Then the time comes when the new piece is no longer a stranger, the time when it's no longer an intellectual challenge, and we're faced with the brutal reality of our own skill level, and that now that the honeymoon is over we have to go make interesting pictures with our cameras. For me that is always humbling, when I'm left with no more excuses for poor quality output than my own skill and imagination.
At this point we can choose to get another toy and keep ourselves distracted for a while. Or we can get out there and start to create and work on our skill, our portfolios, and the prints that we are really proud of and that feel like an accomplishment. When our skill level reaches a certain point, the equipment with which we create becomes a less and less important piece of the puzzle, as long as it works the way we expect it to.

I know a lot of people like this. I'm one of them.

Edit: I should have added that it's also extremely nice when we can credit our own skill with the results we obtain, once we achieve something that we are truly proud of. Honing our technique, and sometimes changing equipment, can change how we work and see.

It isn't necessarily a bad thing to try new things. I'm merely pointing out that it's much too easy to use it as a crutch.

TXFZ1 · Aug 20, 2014

Thomas, that is very well typed. Procrastination is an excuse for not getting that film test completed, scanner calibrated, prints mounted and framed. I also think it is the attaction to the d-word, as I just process, toss on flickr and forget. Maybe start a suppport group.

Hello, my name is David and I am a gearhead.

David

Nuff · Aug 20, 2014

Thomas, I'm guilt as charged. Or waste precious time on forums like apug too

Jim Jones · Aug 20, 2014

Anyone who believes that great equipment is needed for great photography should review the photographs of Eugene Atget. His vision and perserverance more than compensated for the inadequate lens he sometimes used. O'Sullivan's iconic photograph of the White House ruin at the Canyon de Chelly is more satisfying than the two that Ansel Adams took from a similar point 69 years later. Perhaps the labor and time required for the earlier wet plate negative compelled O'Sullivan to expend extra effort to make the most of his opportunity. My first Leica in 1952 produced better photographs than the Mercury II that preceded it, but the improvement was certainly not proportional to the cost.

removed account4 · Aug 20, 2014

totally understanding what you said thomas, thanks for your thoughts
... and i agree its fun to keep things "fresh and fun"
tinker, play use new stuff ...

i originally gave the example of someone with the 11x14 camera ...
here is another one ... a 19 year old kid in 1984 gets a 6000$ camera
with barely any understanding on how to make any photographs.
before the $6000 camera was was used, he used a pentax k1000 and
again his skill, expertise &c were less than optimal, yet he used the expensive camera
so he could "look and act like a real photographer with a real camera" and at the end of the semester
the photographs made with the the new toy were no better than they were with the k1000.

im not really talking about wanting or pining for a new expensive toy to use but when people use
expensive stuff almost like bling, so they can "finish the look" thinking that the expensive stuff
will somehow do the heavy lifting, and transform them into something different than who they are.

===
yeah i know what you mean mark, "no pain no gain" has a nice ring to it

==
michael, thanks for the music analogy ... and i agree there is a lot of snobbery all around,
but i actually know and know OF people who DO believe what i have written that expensive stuff
WILL make their work better ...

DannL. · Aug 20, 2014

Would it be in my best interest to purchase the best equipment that I can afford? I want to be a Portrait Photographer and I would like to make a very good living in Portrait Photography. In fact, since I am going to make a serious go of this, I just might shoot for a little fame along the way. All I have used for the last 35 years is a Vivitar 110 camera, which has a broken flash. Should I just continue using the Vivitar and the skills I presently possess? Maybe keep the camera and take a class? I was also thinking about upgrading my old aluminum shop-light, since the lighting in the shed is quite dim. The bulb gives a strange green cast to the client's skin. I heard there's a thing called Studio Lighting. That sounds expensive to me. Anything with "Studio" in it sounds expensive to me. When clients see that old tin shed I'm using as a work-area, they always run screaming. I suppose I could make a fence using those old car tires, and get a few dogs to keep potential clients around a bit longer. I just need to get them beyond the door of the shed. Then I'll have them in the palm of my hand. That 110 film is really hard to find these days. I would prefer not to suffer any criticism for any extravagances that might occur along the way. I am quite aware that after upgrading the camera, shed, shop-light, and fence, I could still fall flat on my ass and fail to make it as a successful Portrait Photographer. Primarily because of my portfolio. I just don't know.

Eric Rose · Aug 20, 2014

Depends on what type of photography you are doing. Professional vs amateur, sports, conflict, commercial advertising, architecture, etc etc.

ntenny · Aug 20, 2014

Thomas Bertilsson said:
I often observe the following: (...really good stuff snipped)

Thanks for that very honest analysis. I recognize myself in it too; the pleasure of a new toy is a terrific motivator, but it can't substitute for competence and vision, and the new toy is much easier to buy than the vision is.

One other point is that sometimes the equipment IS a limiting factor---lenses in 35mm, for instance, where the difference between "just OK" and "damn!" can jump right out at the casual viewer. (My one Canon L lens, the ubiquitous 70-200/4, really did pay off immediately in image quality. My wife calls it "the happy lens". It's not like I'm the world's best bird photographer or anything, but it turns out I was better all along than the results I was getting with merely-OK lenses.) Is it fair to say, do y'all think, that part of a photographer's technical maturity is the ability to say "this would work best with X toolset" without getting caught up in "my whole life would be redeemed by spending $Y,000,000,000 on Z toolset"?

-NT

BradS · Aug 20, 2014

A favorite high school teacher, Mr. Perry Heron (r.i.p.), in addition to teaching US Government, History and even Driver's Ed., used to share his wisdom with the class. In many ways, this was the real value of his classes. One of the things he used to tell us was "buy the best pair of shoes you can afford and take care of them". I cannot say I heard his voice when i bought it but, back in 1977, I bought a brand new Pentax KX and 55mm f/1.8 SMC Pentax lens. The kit cost me a couple of months pay. Of all the other camera gear that has passed through my hands, the KX has remained. I've used it a great deal, had it serviced just twice....but, has it made "better" photos than the other cameras, some of which were junk? Emphatically, no. It has been a relaible and useful tool however. Well worth the investment.

more expensive the gear the better the photographer?

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