More diluted C-41 experiments

Rafael Saffirio · May 24, 2023

Hi!
This is a comparison of very expired and a bit fogged Vision2 (I won't use my good film for this kind of experiments) developed in C41 al various dilutions (stock, 1+1, 1+3). The developer is flexicolor lorr lu used as one shot without developer starter (just developer + water) To my eye the one developed as 1+1 looks perfectly ok, that means if I use 200 ml of mix in a rotary tank I can get 13 roll per liter of "replenisher" as kodak calls it.

STOCK

1+1

1+3

Compared

henryyjjames · May 24, 2023

Cool experiment! What times did you use?

koraks · May 24, 2023

Have you done any tests with a higher contrast scene? That's where I found ECN2 film to become problematic in C41 developer. I only tested fresh Vision3 though. Based on my tests I'm sticking to ECN2 developer, but with prolonged development to get a higher gamma for RA4 printing. If I only scanned, I would probably not worry about anything and just dunk the film in whatever would give colors (maybe some ra4 developer?) and correct to taste in digital post.

Rafael Saffirio · May 24, 2023

henryyjjames said:
Cool experiment! What times did you use?

3:15 for the stock
3:30 for the 1+1
4:30 for the 1+3 than came out very thin, I don't know if more time would fix it or it's pushing the dilution to far

Rafael Saffirio · May 24, 2023

koraks said:
Have you done any tests with a higher contrast scene? That's where I found ECN2 film to become problematic in C41 developer. I only tested fresh Vision3 though. Based on my tests I'm sticking to ECN2 developer, but with prolonged development to get a higher gamma for RA4 printing. If I only scanned, I would probably not worry about anything and just dunk the film in whatever would give colors (maybe some ra4 developer?) and correct to taste in digital post.

The idea here was to compare the developer for crossover or and other problems compared to the stock concentration and check if 1+1 could be used as a one shot because I always mess it when doing replenishment (did I replenish the last time I used this dev or not??? ), Not to really see if C41 is good or not for Vision film.

koraks · May 24, 2023

Rafael Saffirio said:
The idea here was to compare the developer for crossover or and other problems

I understand. That's why I asked about the contrast. Crossover tends to be limited in a scene brightness range that's limited to 1.5 or 2 stops to begin with. Try something like 5 stops at least to get some more solid information.

Btw, the difference in overall density and gamma seems so massive that I'd start by seriously increasing development on the higher dilutions. It looks like those negatives are very underdeveloped as it is.

Rafael Saffirio · May 24, 2023

koraks said:
I understand. That's why I asked about the contrast. Crossover tends to be limited in a scene brightness range that's limited to 1.5 or 2 stops to begin with. Try something like 5 stops at least to get some more solid information.

Btw, the difference in overall density and gamma seems so massive that I'd start by seriously increasing development on the higher dilutions. It looks like those negatives are very underdeveloped as it is.

yes 1+3 is very under development, I'll settle with the 1+1, for me is a good compromise to get more from my chemistry.

Romanko · May 25, 2023

Rafael Saffirio said:
This is a comparison of very expired and a bit fogged Vision2

This looks promising. I would love to see fresh C-41 film developed in stock and 1+1 dilution and compared side-by-side. Is it possible to get the same negative density out of 1+1 dilution? I expect the answer is 'Yes' since we are not even close to exhausting the developer at this concentration. You development time adjustments look insufficient. Tetenal recommends increasing development time from 8 min (fresh) to 11 min (13-16 films) as the developer gets exhausted. You can use a simple snip test to adjust the development time.

Is there any noticeable difference in grain?

What are the pros and cons of diluting the developer and using it one shot compared to re-using/replenishing?

Rafael Saffirio · May 25, 2023

Romanko said:
What are the pros and cons of diluting the developer and using it one shot compared to re-using/replenishing?

For me is that if it is one shot it can be used in a rotary tank (you can't re use developer used in the rotary because it oxidices too much too quickly) Also, but I have no proof for this, I think that the developer will keep better if it is at "replenisher concetration", and last but no least in my case al always forgot if the last time that I used the developer did the replenisment or not and to make things worse the last time that I did it I confuced the bottles and replenished with something that didn't had a label but I believe it was fixer or something acid because it killed the developer

Tetenal recommends 8 minutes for C-41????
I can't tell you about the grain because this film has a dense base fog that makes everything look grainy. but the stock an 1+1 looks equally grainy to me

Donald Qualls · May 25, 2023

So, undiluted replenisher should be a little overdeveloped -- for "tank solution" you'd use, IIRC, close to 1/3 the volume as water and starter combined.

Rafael Saffirio said:
replenished with something that didn't had a label but I believe it was fixer or something acid because it killed the developer

C-41 fixer is near neutral. Bleach is slightly acidic...

lamerko · May 25, 2023

I happened to read a post by David Lyga - maybe it will be helpful.

To remove any ambiguities: My FIX is with regular film fixer (although Kodak makes a dedicated Flexicolor fixer which is great). I have not had any problems, however, with using standard fixer for both color and B&W. For film (either B&W or color) I use the fixer at half strength and have had no problems. You have to understand that Kodak assumes that you will be reusing chemicals and gear their 'requirement' to take up the slack due to that and to procedural sloppiness (David Lyga is not 'sloppy'). My blix, although it uses half strength fixer and my pot ferr bleach, can even be diluted AGAIN if you are patient with time (maybe eight to ten minutes. Since I do one shot with everything I dilute heavily. To re-iterate what I have said in the past, I develop C-41 film for 8 minutes (at 100F) diluting Kodak Flexicolor (actually KF 12-1532753) a whopping 1 + 9. That turns a 25 US gallon size into a 250 US gallon size. Of course, I do not mix everything at once, but, instead, measure the chemicals for what is needed. For example, to make one liter (mixed per Kodak) take 80 ml of A, 9.4 ml of B, 10 ml of C and add WTM 1000. This is what I call a stock C41 developer (even though it is precisely what Kodak calls for in the actual development. I then dilute this stock 1 + 9 and I get great negatives. Storage of the stock in PET plastic (filled to the brim by either squeezing certain PET bottles) or adding glass marbles does this well. I can store this for years and years, despite the naysayers out there who 'know' otherwise. - David Lyga

pentaxuser · May 25, 2023

I certainly thought that David Lyga's experiments were worthwhile. Pity he left us

pentaxuser

koraks · May 25, 2023

lamerko said:
I happened to read a post by David Lyga - maybe it will be helpful.

If you root around that thread a little more, you'll find an example print I made using his actual negatives. I found the colors difficult (impossible) to get right from his 1+9 negatives. It's been a while, but the results are still there along with my interpretation.

pentaxuser said:
Pity he left us

Sure is.

Romanko · May 25, 2023

Rafael Saffirio said:
Tetenal recommends 8 minutes for C-41?

Oops! That was for their "alternative" processing at 30 degrees. For the normal temperature of 38 degrees it is 3:15 (fresh) to 4:00 (13-16 films).

Rafael Saffirio · May 29, 2023

lamerko said:
I happened to read a post by David Lyga - maybe it will be helpful.

Hi.
I did anther test at 1+3 for 8 minutes but it was the same has the 4:30 minutes, maybe the pH is not correct. I did read those post from David a few years ago, if I recall correctly I did add something to increase the pH but for my is just not worth it.

lamerko · May 29, 2023

I haven't tried such things - they seem a little strange to me. I guess there will always be some annoying crossovers in the colors. Regarding the post from David Lyga - he had mentioned that he was actually using a replenisher instead of a developer. The composition and, accordingly, pH are different - maybe it has some significance, but...

Donald Qualls · May 31, 2023

Given you can get crossover with a minute of compensation for temperature, I think it's likely that crossover will be unavoidable in a diluted developer situation. Correctly matching the gamma of the three color layers is very strongly dependent on how the development rate matches up with the rate of penetration of chemistry into the gelatin layers and with the precise formulation of each layer.

The only reason I see to use Flexicolor diluted is to save money, and in my experience it works better to replenish, even if you don't use all the replenisher before you lose trust in it due to age. Both cost less than Kodak's recommended "full strength one-shot" for small tanks; replenishment will give equivalent results for a year or more if your replenisher storage is good. Dilution, from what I've seen here and in Lyga's thread(s), never really does match either one-shot or replenishment results.

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