More battery frustration

xkaes

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I've ranted recently in other threads about my problems with alkaline batteries in Vivitar 283 flashes and lithium batteries in Minolta Maxxum cameras, but today I ran across another anomaly.

The Minolta Maxxum 5 is powered by TWO Lithium CR2 batteries. I have different brands of CR2 batteries and some will work with the cameras and some won't power them on -- even though they are all new and register as fully charged with a voltmeter (under load or not). But today, one Maxxum 5 would not turn on with any CR2 batteries -- although some would give me a low battery icon.

So I decided to try a different approach. The Maxxum 5 has a battery back that holds FOUR Alkaline AA batteries -- and replaces the two CR2 batteries. It specifically is stamped -- DO NOT USE LITHIUM AA BATTERIES. So I put in four AA alkaline batteries (ones that will not power up my Vivitar flashes), and the Maxxum 5 powers up fine.

In short, I can get my Maxxum 5 cameras (that are designed for TWO CR2 lithium batteries) to work fine with alkaline batteries -- but they all have problems with lithium batteries.

And, of couurse, I still have the OPPOSITE problem with my Vivitar 283 flashes. They were designed well before lithium batteries were on the market -- and specifically state to use alkaline batteries. I can't get any of them to work with the NEW AA Alkalines that I have (which power up my Maxxum 5 fine), but the flashes all work fine with AA lithium batteries.

So I'll be powering up my lithium-based cameras with alkaline batteries, and my alkaline-based flashes with lithium batteries.

It's surprising I have any hair left!!!

Whatever you do, if your battery-powered gear doesn't work -- try different batteries before you throw it away or send it in for repair.
 
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koraks

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xkaes said:
It specifically is stamped -- DO NOT USE LITHIUM AA BATTERIES.
Click to expand...

Probably because typical lithium chemistry gives something like 3.2V/cell. This would take the power supply way over what the camera is designed for. There's also more modern 1.5V Lithium batteries (Li-FeS2), but I don't think they've been around for quite as long on the marketplace in any volume. So I suspect the warning is really with this issue in mind.

You sure your Minolta doesn't suffer from a leaky electrolytic capacitor somewhere? I can imagine this resulting in similar problems.
 

BrianShaw

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Have you ever thought about confining your photography pursuits to manual cameras only?
 
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xkaes

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koraks said:
You sure your Minolta doesn't suffer from a leaky electrolytic capacitor somewhere? I can imagine this resulting in similar problems.
Click to expand...

If this were just with one Maxxum 5 camera I'd consider that, but even in that case, why would the camera work fine with alkaline batteries?
 
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xkaes

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BrianShaw said:
Have you ever thought about confining your photography pursuits to manual cameras only?
Click to expand...

I'm all set with manual cameras, but sometimes I like to use electronic flash with them -- but as long as I bring along the wrong (I MEAN RIGHT) batteries, I'm all set. And the Maxxum 5 is the smallest, lightest, most full featured 35mm SLR on the planet -- and uses the latest AF lenses.
 
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koraks

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xkaes said:
If this were just with one Maxxum 5 camera I'd consider that, but even in that case, why would the camera work fine with alkaline batteries?
Click to expand...

Might be that the pack of 2x lithium you use happens to have a higher internal resistance than the pack of 4 alkalines.

The problem here is most likely that batteries aren't as simple as they seem, from an electrical viewpoint, and the camera (and or flash unit) just as well. A theoretical battery looks like the image on the left. A more realistic battery looks like the middle image, with L being of a very small value just like the series resistance, and the parallel resistance being very high. A battery pack of two parallel batteries looks like the image on the right-hand side.

I could have drawn in parasitic capacitances in the battery pack as well. All of these 'unseen' components play an insignificant role under 'normal' operating conditions. However, they do become relevant when voltage or current are either very high or very low, the load exhibits very high transients in terms of amplitude or frequency, etc. To make matters worse, the values of those parasitic effects are generally not constant, but they change with temperature, age of the battery, dynamic load conditions etc. Or silly things like dirty contacts, with can result in mechanical factors resulting in gigantic swings in parasitic resistances - i.e. a contact 'bouncing' between low and high impedance - or in more simple words: "oddly enough it seems to work fine if I press on the housing here, but when I take my finger off..."

You could set up a similar argument for parts within the camera; for instance, each capacitor in there is also (at least) two resistors, an inductor and the actual capacitor. Each resistor has a parasitic capacitance and inductance, and even a simple wire is composed of all three passive (virtual) components. And that's just the passives!

And again, all of this doesn't (shouldn't) matter as long as the device operates well within its intended conditions. But the balance may be thrown out of whack as stuff ages, is used under different conditions than anticipated (very high or very low temperature, humidity), or even if batteries are introduced with characteristics the designers of the equipment didn't foresee.

Throw all of that stuff together and it's not so surprising we sometimes see 'weird' stuff happening in equipment that's 40 years old combined with a wide range of battery topologies and qualities.
 

Paul Howell

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I use standard AA in all my winders, drives, and battery grips. I did use an set of Alkaline AAs in a Konica T4 winder, one of the batteries blew up, not just leaked blew up and damaged the plastic case. I buy my AA at one the dollar type stores, they are cheap, keep a second set.
 

wiltw

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Lithium ION rechargeable batteries have 3.7V output. But Lithium AA batteries (lithium disulfide) have 1.5V output, and have been on the market for a very long time...decades. As explained by Energizer Lithium AA information
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://data.energizer.com/pdfs/lithiuml91l92_appman.pdf
"The term “lithium battery” refers to many different chemistries utilizing lithium as the anode but differing in cathode material, electrolyte, and construction. They may be classified in several ways, but one convenient method is by the cathode material and voltage. Using an iron disulfide cathode gives a battery with a nominal voltage of 1.5 volts. Most other lithium batteries are 3.0 volt systems using cathodes comprising either solids (manganese dioxide or carbon monofluoride) or highly toxic liquids (sulfur dioxide or thionyl chloride). Finally, lithium batteries should not be confused with lithium ion rechargeable batteries. Lithium ion batteries do not contain metallic lithium. "​
​
Lithium AA are more expensive than alkaline AA, and they have as a major advantage the reduced tendency to corrode and leak, and they have a very long shelf life! So lithium chemistry non-rechargeable are often used for emergency beacon transmitters.
 

cmacd123

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Does the camera (or the flash) have an internal adjustment for the Low battery function?.

some flash units have a warning to not use Ni-Cd or Lithium Batteries, as both types have a low internal resistance, and so allow the flash to draw More current than it is designed to use (designer having used Alkaline batteries with Higher internal resistance in the lab)
 
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xkaes

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My cameras and flashes have no such adjustment.

The camera manual says to use TWO CR2 non-rechargeable lithium batteries -- which I do. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. But the add-on battery pack says just use AA alkaline batteries -- works fine, every time.

The flash manual says to use FOUR AA non-rechargeable alkaline batteries -- which I do. The ones I have now don't work. But with AA non-rechargeable lithium batteries -- they work fine, every time.
 
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xkaes

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Along the same lines, the only gear I have that specifically states it can use lithium or alkaline (AA) batteries -- a Nikon Coolpix 5600 & 4600 -- has no switch or setting for the battery type.
 

BobD

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FYI the Maxxum 5 manual says:

"Occasionally, the battery-condition indicator will give a false low-battery-
power warning , even though there is enough power capacity. Turn
the main switch on and off a few times to reset the display."

But ...
I don't use alkaline or lithium AA/AAA batteries anymore. They leak and damage gear.

I use LiFePo4 rechargeables paired with dummy cells. They are 3.2v each and can be recharged many times. And, I have never had one leak.

I have a Maxxum 70 that uses the same damn CR2 batteries as the 5. Unfortunately Minolta didn't make an AA battery accessory for it.
 
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xkaes

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BobD said:
"Occasionally, the battery-condition indicator will give a false low-battery-
power warning , even though there is enough power capacity. Turn
the main switch on and off a few times to reset the display."
Click to expand...

I try that all the time -- because I frequently get the LOW BATTERY warning. I even remove the batteries and reinsert them. Lucky I have the AA battery holder.
 

Andreas Thaler

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xkaes said:
I try that all the time -- because I frequently get the LOW BATTERY warning. I even remove the batteries and reinsert them. Lucky I have the AA battery holder.
Click to expand...

I'm giving you a Minolta power supply for Christmas!

Because I understand that things like this annoy you
 

titrisol

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I had the 2cr5 battery pack in my maxxumm 5 and I hacked into the 2cr5 with energizer lithiums (cr123) and it worked great Those batts lasted for a long time.
Alkalines should probably work fine as well, those electronics are a lot less finkincky
 

Sirius Glass

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Alan Edward Klein said:
My Garmin hand-held GPS has different settings for (2) AA regular alkaline or (2) AA Lithium batteries. Why is that?
Click to expand...

Different voltages which have different operating voltages for the GPS.
 

Reginald S

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During the time with my Minoltas 8000i and 700si I sometimes had to "wake up" the Lithium battery after a longer time out of usage.
They seemed to be dad but slowly came back to full power.
Once, this lithium phenomenon has been well known - they need a job again.

You may give them a try, out of camera, and with a tiny bulb par example.
 

cmacd123

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Reginald S said:
During the time with my Minoltas 8000i and 700si I sometimes had to "wake up" the Lithium battery after a longer time out of usage.
They seemed to be dead but slowly came back to full power.
Click to expand...
I had one batch of "Interstate" brand CR2 cells that were like that. I was using them in a Canon Rebel Ti. turn on the camera and get low battery - pop up the flash and the low battery warning goes away. (as long as their was enough power to run the Flash Release mechanism) Ended up Junking a couple of them, as they were trying my Limited patience. Also stopped buying from the dealer who sold them to me.
 
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xkaes

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Here's the laugh of the day.

I just received another Maxxum 5. I got it basically for the price of postage. The seller said it was DEAD. I figured I could use it for parts -- camera strap, eye-piece cup, etc.

I put in a few different lithium CR2 batteries with no response -- even with turning it ON & OFF several times, checking the contacts for dirt & corrosion, lifting the built-in flash, changing the function settings & dials, etc., etc. Still nothing. No surprise, right?

I then attached my AA alkaline-only BP-200 battery pack, and it fired up right away. Everything works.

So I detached the AA alkaline-only BP-200 battery pack, re-inserted the CR2 lithium batteries, and it now works fine.

For how long? Who knows.

These batteries are driving me BATTY -- but I got a mint condition camera with a mint condition zoom lens -- and a good laugh -- for next to nothing!!!!!
 
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xkaes

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The saga continues. I received yet another Maxxum 5 today -- AS IS -- for a price I couldn't refuse. I put in two new CR2 3v batteries (tested each at 3.3v), and it showed a flashing LOW battery indicator, and would not turn on.

The manual states that occasionally the camera will display a LOW battery indication even with good batteries. It gives no explanation. Their suggestion is to turn the camera ON and OFF a few times. I tried that to no avail.

So I took two CR2 batteries out of another Maxxum 5 (tested each at 2.9v), and they worked great -- surprisingly, with no LOW battery indication.

Then I put the 3.3v batteries in the camera that had the 2.9v batteries, and that camera worked fine -- also with no LOW battery indication.

So it seems like some random error. Even with working cameras, some batteries will turn some cameras ON, and some won't. But I can see no way to figure out if the problem is the batteries or the cameras.

Anyway, I got a great camera with TWO great lenses for next to nothing -- which works with some batteries.

The only thing I'm pretty sure about is that some Maxxum 5 users UNLOAD their cameras because they think they're dead -- when they're not -- even with new batteries.
 

BrianShaw

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You have incredible endurance and committment. I would have given up on that specific camera a long, long time ago.
 
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xkaes

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Faulty capacitors in TWO cameras -- probably more???
 
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