More 12X20 heartaches / headaches!

jimgalli · Sep 22, 2006

So after I discovered all my Efke film was screwed I broke the seal on some NEW Kodak TMY in the triple box with 2008 exp. I unloaded 4 sheets of Efke and loaded up the Kodak excited with the knowledge that these might be my first problem free 12X20 exposures.

On the way home from the Hall's in Lehi I stopped in Deseret Utah and photographed a gorgeous victorian school house that hasn't been blown up yet. It was the ideal 1220 shot filling the frame just perfectly. Max rise to get the spire peak in. In the can, right? Then I drove 100 extra miles to photograph the old Lund Mercantile and Hotel in Modena Utah. Another perfect frame for 12X20! Satisfied that I had used the format to near perfect proportionment I developed both sheets last evening, my first chance since last weekend.

The film is fogged and worthless. Yes, I'm angry. Man it would be nice to just put film in the camera and go make pictures without all these headaches!! Will I ever get back to either location to get those perfect shots back? Probably not in this lifetime. Apparently we can't get film delivered in Tonopah Nevada that hasn't been nuked beyond recognition.

mark · Sep 22, 2006

How are these getting fogged? Was this box a POS too. 12x20 sheets ain't cheap, and I'ld be looking for heads if a box of new film was fogged.

jimgalli · Sep 22, 2006

That's the excellent question Mark. Sealed fresh film, the only thing my pea brain can think of is they are getting nuked in transit somehow. Or did Kodak fire everyone that knew how to work in the dark? I'm looking at throwing $150 bucks of film in the trash.

naturephoto1 · Sep 22, 2006

Hi Jim,

Sorry to hear about the problems. Just wondering though, are you sure that you aren't getting light leaks somewhere in the camera or the film holders? Maybe the film is more fogged than those possible causes.

Rich

Aggie · Sep 22, 2006

The question is, did the 8x10's come out ok? I really do not want to freeze my a$$ of again to sit still for something I truely hate to do.

BTW you will get back to those spots. As li'l Abner's mom used to say, "I have spoken!" Besides they are too close to me, and that cache of cameras and old lenses,(trying to entice you here) that are located in Iron County Utah. Same county as Modena if I remember corectly.

MattCarey · Sep 22, 2006

Aggie said:
The question is, did the 8x10's come out ok? I really do not want to freeze my a$$ of again to sit still for something I truely hate to do.

BTW you will get back to those spots. As li'l Abner's mom used to say, "I have spoken!" Besides they are too close to me, and that cache of cameras and old lenses,(trying to entice you here) that are located in Iron County Utah. Same county as Modena if I remember corectly.

What cache of cameras/lenses? Can I come too?

Jim--sorry to hear about your heartache. I hope Kodak makes good on their film. I bet John is better about this than Kodak, but there is still hope.

Maybe with all the frustrations, it is time to take out the Cirkut?

Matt

Dave Wooten · Sep 22, 2006

Jim,

Maybe develope an unexposed sheet in the Darkroom. (?)

mark · Sep 22, 2006

If the sheets are fogged, and you just opened the package get in touch with Kodak, after developing, as dave says, an unexposed sheet.

DOn't throw away 150.00 dollars in film until you know why. If it is the holder, or the camera you can fix it, if it is the film you can get a replacement.

Ole · Sep 22, 2006

There are several ways for film to become fogged, and x-rays in transport is only one of them. Not even the most efficient one...

Developing an unexposed sheet would tell you if the problem is in cameras/holders/whatever between loading holders and unloading holders again. Might be useful to know for getting a refund.

jimgalli · Sep 22, 2006

Getting the house winterized today and quick as I'm done with that I plan to soup 2 more sheets. 1 from each new package of film. But the camera / holders were in use just days previous and I didn't experience any troubles other that the corner leak from the leaky Efke packaging. Pretty doubtful the camera is at fault.

sanking · Sep 22, 2006

jimgalli said:
Getting the house winterized today and quick as I'm done with that I plan to soup 2 more sheets. 1 from each new package of film. But the camera / holders were in use just days previous and I didn't experience any troubles other that the corner leak from the leaky Efke packaging. Pretty doubtful the camera is at fault.

I have had my share of major failures and screw-ups with 12X20 so I know how frustrating this can be. Just for the record, however, I have been using TMY from this order and have not seen any problem with fogging.

Bear in mind that an ASA 400 film is a lot more likely to show fogging from camera problems than one of ASA 100. A minor bellows or holder problem that might not show up with the Efke could cause major fogging with TMY.

Sandy

garysamson · Sep 22, 2006

Jim,
I have gone through two ten sheet boxes of 12x20 Kodak Tmax 400 film from the JandC order without any problems. Good luck!

jimgalli · Sep 22, 2006

Well, Sandy and Ole were right on. The film is clean. A little more film base plus fog than I would have expected but no artifacts. When you're wrong, you're wrong.

Steve Hamley · Sep 22, 2006

Jim,

I was going to ask if the delivery truck drives past the Nevada Test Site on the way to your place ;^)

Steve

Michael Kadillak · Sep 23, 2006

garysamson said:
Jim,
I have gone through two ten sheet boxes of 12x20 Kodak Tmax 400 film from the JandC order without any problems. Good luck!

Ditto here. I have shot 8x20, 12x20 and 11x14 TMY and have and have had no problems and minimal FB+F. Of course, I am being extremely careful to keep my film holders in covered light tight septums in the field and a dark cloth over the camera back at all times. Hope you figure out where the problem is.

Cheers!

Jim Chinn · Sep 23, 2006

Check the bellows for cracks or tears especially where it attaches to the rear standard/frame. You might have a tear or seperation that opens with bellows extension.

George Losse · Sep 23, 2006

Jim,

Sorry to hear about your troubles with ULF film fogging. As we go up in sheet size the ammount of troubles seems to multiply.

You haven't mentioned much about the holders. Are they older? I know you inspected them before loading film, and they appeared light tight, but did you test them with a sheet of paper and walk them outside.

I have older 8x20 Korona holders that are light tight in the studio but can not be exposed to direct sunlight outdoors without fogging. It seems the dark slide is not fully opaque. I've changed out the dark slides for a new sheet on a couple of the holders but still will only shoot with them outdoors if they will not hit the sunshine.

How are you storing the exposed film?
Some of the film boxes are not fully light tight either without keeping the film inside a bag inside the boxes. Illford boxes are this way in the smaller formats.

There are lots of ways for light to get to a ULF sheet of film and destroy the image.

Michael Kadillak · Sep 23, 2006

George Losse said:
There are lots of ways for light to get to a ULF sheet of film and destroy the image.

Well said George. It can also manifest its ugly head as any combinations of these adverse consequences within the entire process from loading holders and developing negatives back in the darkroom. It takes some serious descipline to isolate each of these variables and eliminate them throughout your ULF system.

Dave Wooten · Sep 23, 2006

Steve Hamley said:
Jim,

I was going to ask if the delivery truck drives past the Nevada Test Site on the way to your place ;^)

Steve

Don t know perosnally about that delivery truck....but I do know from personal experience and observaton, that strange and wonderous occurrences happen quite often in the Nevada skies over Nye county......( said in hushed and whispered tone with a furtive glance to my backside)

jimgalli · Sep 23, 2006

Thanks for the thoughtful words. I have 2 holders. They are newer Hoffman holders from the mid '60's is my best guess. I will have to set the whole system up in bright sun and stick my head in from all directions to try to see where the leaks are. Wondering if contact cementing some black felt cloth on the surfaces at the rear where the film holders contact the body would be counterproductive.

One thing I'm positive about. Once you leave 11X14 the problems seem to mount by magnitudes and I'm starting to wonder about diminishing returns. 8X10 just seems so easy!

sanking · Sep 23, 2006

jimgalli said:
Thanks for the thoughtful words. I have 2 holders. They are newer Hoffman holders from the mid '60's is my best guess. I will have to set the whole system up in bright sun and stick my head in from all directions to try to see where the leaks are. Wondering if contact cementing some black felt cloth on the surfaces at the rear where the film holders contact the body would be counterproductive.

One thing I'm positive about. Once you leave 11X14 the problems seem to mount by magnitudes and I'm starting to wonder about diminishing returns. 8X10 just seems so easy!

Jim,

I check for light leaks by putting a fairly bright light inside the camera. Close off the opening aftrer the light is in and insert a holder. Extend the bellows. Now turn off the light and walk all around the camera from front to back looking for light, Look also all around the side of the film holders.

If the fogging is overall it is probably some kind of bellows leak, or perhpas a leak near the lensboard. More localized fogging could be from the filmholder, or fit of the holder in the camera. However, Hoffman holders have a good reputation so chances are that it is the camera.

Sandy

Ian Grant · Sep 23, 2006

Bad luck Jim sounds an expensive problem to solve, in materials testing for the fault.

Why don't you test the darkslides / film holders with B&W paper, and a second thought is do the same with the camera. You could make a very rough & ready cardboard liner that fit inside the camera, and attach B&W paer on the outside, (4 sides), and at the film holder end With a film holder in the back and the shutter closed just leave outside for an hour or so. Process the paper & you'll know exactly where to look for the light leaks.

Ian

John Kasaian · Sep 23, 2006

Jim, if you had to drive the length of Nevada 6 from Utah to Tonopah only to develop fogged 12x20 film as a souvenier of the trip, I can certainly understand your discouragement! Good luck in finding the gremlin that caused the problem!

JohnArs · Sep 23, 2006

Thats why I always work with 2 different cameras if possibel!
In my case only a 4x5 and 8x10 but if something would be with my 8x10 I still have some shoots in 4x5 and visa versa!
But hope all gets to a good end for you Jim!

Robert Hall · Sep 23, 2006

Well, Jim..

All I can say -- from my own experience -- is welcome to the club.

If I had $5 for each sheet of film I have screwed up in 12x20... well, I'd have a lot of new film.

Tif and I would like you to come up again sometime, so you may have another chance at those places. Personally, I think they get better looking each year.

More 12X20 heartaches / headaches!

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