Moersch lith kit questions

I'm trying out a kit and I'm finding I need REALLY long exposures. I did one 10 minute exposure, and still didn't have the highlight detail I wanted. And yes, the lens was wide open. These are not bullet-proof negs - I've printed them non-lith on MGWT, without having to go to astounding exposure times. I'm finding exposures on Maco Multibrom in the 3-6 minute range, while Foma 131 needs 6 to 10+ minutes. This is enlarging 4x5 to 8x10 so we're not talking about the enlarger head being up at the ceiling.
In the developer Foma 131 is taking 10-15 minutes before snatch, but the Maco Multibrom is taking 40-60 minutes. I spent all day in the darkroom on Saturday and got 2 prints worth keeping.
Previously I've used the Maco Lith chemicals and haven't had such looong exposures. There have been long times in the soup - but that's when I have mixed a weak batch on purpose, or the developer is close to exhaustion.
Are other folks finding the same thing with the Moersch kit? I've not done enough with it to discover if the results are significantly different enough to order another one. At this point I think I'll go back to the Maco, which has the added advantage of a source closer to home.

Which Moersch variant is it? I use the Moersch Easylith (and when I run out I use LD20).

In my opinion you can do two things to cut down on the time in the tray - either warm developer (by water bath or just varmer water) or less dilution.

With temps around 45-48 C I can get dev times that are 3 minutes for a 18x24. And this is with Fomatone (542 II) which is a fast paper. Even with Fomabrom Variant III - a slow (or very slow depending on circumstances!) paper I also get times around 4-6 minutes in hot developer.

And my exposure times are 60 to 90 seconds on f8. So I am a bit surprised by your exposure times.

Sly, what dilution are you using? At what temp?

Sly: I recently used the Moersch Master Lith developer at a dilution of 25ml A:25ml B:1000ml H20:4ml of the D additive. I kept my developer at or just over 30C. I started to see an image in a couple of minutes and the blacks were fully developed in 4 to 5 minutes (longer as the developer matured.)

I am currently using Fotospeed LD20 at 15A:15B:1000H20 and 1 or 2 ml of KBr and snatching at about the same times.

I am exposing 4x5 negatives onto 8x10 Fomatone 131 paper, and most of my exposures are between 8 and 13 seconds at f.8 to get nice, delicate highlights. I don't know how the speed of the 131 compares to the Fomatone papers that Jerevan quoted.

Hi Lillian,

I'm also surprised at your exposure times -- I'm surprised any image would come up at all based on the massive overexposure (and the reciprocity failure/fogging of the paper?) What dilution and what temperature are you developing with? I find Moersch to get quite slow at cooler temperatures (around 20 C).

My standard paper has always been Foma 132 or 131 in Moersch SE5 or Easylith with a dilution of 1+20 to 1+30. Generally speaking, I enlarge normal 6x6 negs to 8x8 inches and try to go for 2-3 stops overexposure which usually puts me in the 1-2 minute range. Development times run between 4-10 minutes (it gets a little slower as time goes by and the developer ages and cools). I don't usually use hot developer, but I do try to have it a little warmer than usual, around 25-30 degrees C. The only problems I ever had with the developer was trying the Fuji paper (Fujibro) in lith, which works, but took an incredibly long time in the developer (30-60 minutes). That time decreased dramatically when I did it in much hotter lith (between 30-35 C) to about 5-10 minutes. Most of the images in my gallery were done with this combination (over 3 years and three different darkrooms and enlargers).

I find I can get about 15-20 good prints in a session if I do one replenishment about halfway through (dump half the developer, replace with new developer and warm water), or by periodically adding warm water to the developer. I would suggest maybe starting with a warmer developer at least to see what it does to shorten your development times.

Dan Henderson said:

I am exposing 4x5 negatives onto 8x10 Fomatone 131 paper, and most of my exposures are between 8 and 13 seconds at f.8 to get nice, delicate highlights. I don't know how the speed of the 131 compares to the Fomatone papers that Jerevan quoted.

Click to expand...

The 542 II has the same speed as the 131. It's the same emulsion but on a different paper base, AFAIK. With Easylith I've used 30A + 30B + 900 ml water.

Jerevan said:

The 542 II has the same speed as the 131. It's the same emulsion but on a different paper base, AFAIK. With Easylith I've used 30A + 30B + 900 ml water.

Click to expand...

I think you are right about that. If I had thought a bit I would have remembered that Tim Rudman wrote that most of the Fomatone line is the same emulsion on different papers.

Something does seem odd. I usually use Rollei/Maco/Labor Partner developer, but recent I've been using the Rollei. I've used it in the same dilutions and temperatures as the Rollei (1:1:50 plus 33% old brown.....no additives....40C) and found it to be fairly similar except the Moersch SE5 colors were a bit more subdued on Fomatone. My exposures are reasonably consistant....f5.6 (80mm lens) for 30-120 seconds (most around 50-ish)

I agree, something is not right. I have not used the Moersch chems, but these things work all the same.

Sometimes it is instructive to drop a strip of paper in the developer, with the lights on, and watch what happens. Maybe drop a pinch of sulfite on it, and see what happens. With development times like yours, something is not right with the chems.

Also, I have found that flashing the paper is useful in bringing out highlights. I just do this with the wall switch, so it's hit and miss, but it does work.

Well, maybe I mixed it up wrong - I thought I was using the recommended dilution. I've been known to get my math wrong. I did mix it with warmish water. I didn't check the temps, but it wasn't working any faster for my initial test strips. By the time I was finished with them it would have been room temperature. I don't have a thermostat, but I was comfortable in a Tshirt.

Rick - I'll try preflashing for the highlights. Somehow I never thought of doing that for lith prints, though it's part of my bag of tricks otherwise.

So I gave the Moersch another try today - mixed with hot water. 25A, 25B, 1000H2O, 5-10D (as per instructions with the chemicals). Exposures were wide open 30-100 seconds. No snatch time under 20 minutes, most were 30-45 minutes. Used the Maco Multibrom, didn't even try the Foma. I replenished after every 3-4 prints. I also poured the developer back into a beaker, and placed it in another beaker of hot water to get the temp back up over 80F whenever it cooled down.
I can't figure out from the instructions what additive C is used for. Any help there?

With low-volume production stock chemistry, it is not out of the question that your chemistry is no good.

I am not familiar with this kit, so I don't know what "c" is.

It's either a developer problem or an activator problem. If you have sepia toner available, try with the sodium hydroxide portion of that in lieu of your "b" from the Moersch kit.

If development does not speed up (at least to the 5-10 minute range) then the developer must be a problem.

Additive C is a solution to inhibit the developer from oxidizing. That's about all I know.

If I remember correctly, C is sulphite and D is KBr. Are you using 5-10 of diluted D or D straight from the bottle (it should be diluted) ? Perhaps try reducing the amount of D as it inhibits development. I use the SE5 kit, but I´m not at home and can´t check my notes.

You may try leaving out D entirely. I haven't used it at all and I don't have the extended times. I mix at a higher dilution (1:1:50+33% old brown for Moersch or Rollei), but I also develop at between 30 and 40C. I float a 11x14 pan in a 16x20 pan and periodically fill the 16x20 pan with 45C-ish water (sort of like a double boiler). I also put another 11x14 pay under the 16x20 pan just to keep the pan off the bottom of the sink to minimize heat loss.

The KBr is supposed to make the old brown unnecessary. It depends on the paper - with some bromide papers I leave out D and don´t use old brown either. It takes a couple of prints to stabilise, and of course depends on the final effect you want. Presumably Macobrom is a high-bromide paper, so perhaps worth a try.

Happy New Year!
Pete

I had good luck with Easylith on Enak graded paper no extra additives,75 to 85 deg. F. Some papers just don't lith. Try it out with out the extra additives.

Happy New years Sly, Mike

Hi Lillian, You could also try communicating directly with Wolfgang. He's probably here at APUG, but is also on FB.

D is pot bromide, a restrainer.

You're using way too much. Instructions say to to dilute at least 1:4 for solution D before using...or just a drop or two of the concentrate per liter.

You're also using a 1:20 lith dilution..in combination with the D solution it becomes too much to overcome. Try a much stronger lith dilution with very little additive. Aim for a 4 minute emergence and an 8-9 minute snatch (or even shorter).

A lot of experimenting with lith, as you can see...but I'm pretty sure you'll see better/quicker results with less or no D.

For what it's worth to you my stats here:
- Moersh Easy Lith 1:80 (1:50 gave me too much contrast)
- Fomatone MC variotone Classic paper
- Exposure times 60-90 seconds @ f8
- rollfilm used Kodak Tmax developed to medium contrast, 4.5x6 format
- developer @ 25°C
- 9-10 minutes developing to snatch
gives me nicely coloured prints 8x10"
Hans

Thanks all. I'll try again. I'll leave out D completely and see what happens.

Mark - I'd love to float my tray in a larger tray to keep the temps up, but my sink just isn't big enough. Pouring it back into the beaker and warming it up there is the best I can manage.

Still don't understand when C is used. I know it's an antioxidant - but under what circumstances would it be useful?

It says that the C is an "antioxidant and darkening reducer, careful addition to avoid peppercorn" in this pdf: http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/files/articles/Lith-eng.pdf

I guess you already have this information?

The antioxidant is a way to prolong the developer life as far as I understand it.

Lillian, This link gives you a little info http://www.alternativephotography.com/wp/processes/lith/lithprint-materials-update (Scroll down to Additives).

Pete

Thanks to all who offered suggestions. Had a more successful session today - left out the D.

Feel I've come off as a bit of a dimwit - I had tried to read Wolfgang's information, but found his prose style too thick and somewhat baffling.

(His English is far ahead of my German though.)

I started with the easy lith kit that had no extra stuff to put in,which made it far easier for me.The stuff is different so until I get use to it, I keep it simple.

Mike