Moersch Carbon toner

NewMexican · Jul 18, 2005

I saw Ole's reference to this toner and was intrigued. Has anyone used this? The info on the Moersch website was both confusing and vague. How does it work with Ilford fb?
Charlie Murray

ann · Jul 18, 2005

The problem with these products is at this time they are not available in the US. Perhaps Canada. I have been interested in playing with them for some time, but until they can be obtained easily i will have to wait.

At one time Eight Elm in Canada carried some products, but when i sent them an email with regard to purchase, they did not respond.

Am sure some of our European pals will shed some light on your question.

Ian Grant · Jul 18, 2005

Aren't they available from J&C ?

If not ask them as they distribute Fotoimpex products in the US and they carry the range at Fotoimpex in Berlin, Germany as does Retro Rhotographic here in the UK

Ian

ann · Jul 18, 2005

they , j&c indicated that they would be carrying them but so far, they are not listed .

NewMexican · Jul 18, 2005

okay, how about Agfa viradon?

I guess the carbon toner is hard to get. Ole mentioned Agfa Viradon . How does it work? Does anything but Sepia work with Ilford mgfb?
charlie

Ian Grant · Jul 18, 2005

Hi Charlie

All sorts of toners will work with Ilford MG FB. really it depends on what shift in colour / warmth you are wanting. If you let us know we may come up with something for you

Ian

ann · Jul 18, 2005

Just to reinforce Ian, all toners will tone, either for archival properties or color shift.

Check out Ilford's website for a basic article on toning, which of course uses their papers as and example.

There are several books on the market with Tim Rudmans' TOning book being the most comprehensive.
Also, Tony Worobiec and Rayk SPence "Beyond Monochrome", Richard Newmans' "Toning Techniques for Photographic Prints" and Tony WOrobiec " TOning and Handcoloring Photograhps"./

Ole · Jul 18, 2005

Ilford MG IV is famous for being very resistant to tone change, but the WT version is very responsive!

The carbon toner is what I'll buy when I've exhausted my old Viradon - not to be confused with New Viradon: The old formula was a selenium/polysulfide toner, the "New" is a polysulfide toner. The results are similar yet very different. Like Moersch Carbon toner the tone depends on dilution.

dlin · Jul 18, 2005

I would second the recommendation of Tim Rudman's book for toning- an outstanding resource on all sorts of toners and techniques with examples to illustrate different results. You should be able to achieve similar control of toning color as described for Moersch's Carbon Toner with a thiocarbamide toner. Thiocarbamide is a sepia toner without the noxious odors associated with Viradon and other sulfide/polysulfide toners. One benefit of this toner is the great number of permutations available to achieve the print color you desire. It is also relatively simple and cheap to mix up the toner solutions yourself from basic raw chemicals (thiourea, sodium hydroxide, potassium ferricyanide, potassium bromide) available from sources such as Artcraft Chemicals. Both Ilford MGFB and MGWT FB respond well to thiocarbamide toner- the former with much cooler browns and the latter much warmer, in general. Please feel free to ask any questions.
All the best,
Daniel

jim appleyard · Jul 18, 2005

Can anyone provide a formual for carbon toner? (sorry for the hijack!!!)

Ian Grant · Jul 18, 2005

Ole said:
Ilford MG IV is famous for being very resistant to tone change, but the WT version is very responsive!

Ole your so wrong

It's only resistant to direct toners like Selenium elc. As soon as you use an indirect toner ie Rehalogenating bleach followed by the toner you have a wealth of tones available.

Ian

Ian Grant · Jul 18, 2005

Carbon toner is Moersch's name what colour shift are you after ?

ann · Jul 18, 2005

Jim,
I don't believe the formula for that toner is published.

At one time i had the link to their website that had wonderful examples of what could be done with Moersch chemicals and papers.

Ole · Jul 18, 2005

Ian Grant said:
Ole your so wrong

It's only resistant to direct toners like Selenium elc. As soon as you use an indirect toner ie Rehalogenating bleach followed by the toner you have a wealth of tones available.

Ian

Ehm - everything responds to rehalogeniting bleach and toning. MG IV is famous for resisting just about every attempt to change the tone - without bleaching first. It's one of very few papers I have found not to change the tone at all in strong KRST, which is in some cases very useful.

skahde · Jul 19, 2005

ann said:
Jim,
I don't believe the formula for that toner is published.

At one time i had the link to their website that had wonderful examples of what could be done with Moersch chemicals and papers.

The formula isn't published but what Wolfgang disclosed strongly points to a toner close to Agfa 516 (Na-Sulfide + Selenium). Nothing you want to make at home. If J&C don't list carbon toner they should be able to get it if you ask as fotoimpex lists it. The effect is not comparable to polysulfide toners or polysulfide/selenium toners like viradon new/old.

OTOH what holds you back from ordering internationally? In recent times I hardly notice a difference if I order something locally, from france, uk, australia or the US (well, australia takes a tad longer). Carbon toner is sold in quantities of 100ml per bottle last time I ordered it.

Examples for results are here: http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/bilder.php?galerie=carbon

If you wan't to order from Wolfgang Moersch directly: http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/index_e.php

Best

Stefan

George Papantoniou · Jul 19, 2005

Ole said:
Ehm - everything responds to rehalogeniting bleach and toning. MG IV is famous for resisting just about every attempt to change the tone - without bleaching first. It's one of very few papers I have found not to change the tone at all in strong KRST, which is in some cases very useful.

I'll second Ole's opinion on this, adding that even rehalogenating toners have difficulties with MG IV's incorporated restrainers. I understand the reasons why Ilford uses them (image consistency under different development conditions, such as chemical strength, temperature etc) but they definitely cause problems with toning. This is partly why Ilford created the WT paper, and promoted it using this argument (that it tones easily) when they introduced it.

This doesn't mean that MG IV is a bad product, only that it is meant to be used for other things and not tone change by immersing in chemical substances. It's a great paper, Ian. Don't you worry about it.

Moersch Carbon toner

NewMexican

ann

Ian Grant

ann

NewMexican

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ann

Ole

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dlin

jim appleyard

Ian Grant

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ann

Ole

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skahde

George Papantoniou

Moersch Carbon toner

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