Modular Daylight Developer System (35mm)

Nathan FilmNx · Feb 27, 2019

I thought I'd give a brief update on the progress I've made extending the automated film developer I discussed in the FilmNX thread here > https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...dfp-yet-another-desktop-film-processor.164871

I've focused on removing the need for the changing bag and implemented a simple daylight developer based on the basic principles used by Rondinax along with some modern IoT sensor/automation integration.

This system consists of the following usage modes & components;

Manual: Just using the daylight developer tank, which can be used manually (not unlike a Rondinax 35). The user needs to rotate knob and add/pour out chemistry.
Semi-Automated: Using a motorized-drive base (tank can be set on and removed at will) to automate the film spooling, agitation, and temperature control. The user adds/pours out chemistry per protocol/timer.
(nearly) Fully-Automated: Combine 1 & 2 along with an automated developer (shown in the video/previous thread) and its hands-off other than inserting film (and retrieving the leader if is fully withdrawn).

Probably easier to show than describe (video below), though let me know if you have any questions. Feedback, as always, is very much appreciated!

I've made a half-dozen run of these for local "alpha" level testing. If there is enough interest in more, as things progress I may be asking for beta users (though probably initially focusing on the daylight developer + motorized base vs. the entire fully automated solution).

Thanks!

-Nathan

RalphLambrecht · Feb 27, 2019

Nathan FilmNx said:
I thought I'd give a brief update on the progress I've made extending the automated film developer I discussed in the FilmNX thread here > https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...dfp-yet-another-desktop-film-processor.164871

I've focused on removing the need for the changing bag and implemented a simple daylight developer based on the basic principles used by Rondinax along with some modern IoT sensor/automation integration.

This system consists of the following usage modes & components;

Manual: Just using the daylight developer tank, which can be used manually (not unlike a Rondinax 35). The user needs to rotate knob and add/pour out chemistry.

Semi-Automated: Using a motorized-drive base (tank can be set on and removed at will) to automate the film spooling, agitation, and temperature control. The user adds/pours out chemistry per protocol/timer.

(nearly) Fully-Automated: Combine 1 & 2 along with an automated developer (shown in the video/previous thread) and its hands-off other than inserting film (and retrieving the leader if is fully withdrawn).

Probably easier to show than describe (video below), though let me know if you have any questions. Feedback, as always, is very much appreciated!

I've made a half-dozen run of these for local "alpha" level testing. If there is enough interest in more, as things progress I may be asking for beta users (though probably initially focusing on the daylight developer + motorized base vs. the entire fully automated solution).

Thanks!

-Nathan

great work but for me(someone who suffered a stroke and lost the use of the left handing the process),it takes one thing to come back to film from digital and that is:there must be an automated way to pull the film out of the spool and into a processing reel.Otherwise, I just cannot develop film again.

Nathan FilmNx · Feb 27, 2019

RalphLambrecht said:
great work but for me(someone who suffered a stroke and lost the use of the left handing the process),it takes one thing to come back to film from digital and that is:there must be an automated way to pull the film out of the spool and into a processing reel.Otherwise, I just cannot develop film again.

Thanks Ralph, This is good feedback. This current version does spool out the film on its own after it is attached to the take-up spool. I think a slight change to the take-up spool would make it a fairly direct action of sliding the film down one of the four slots an easier target.

-Nathan

MattKing · Feb 27, 2019

RalphLambrecht said:
great work but for me(someone who suffered a stroke and lost the use of the left handing the process),it takes one thing to come back to film from digital and that is:there must be an automated way to pull the film out of the spool and into a processing reel.Otherwise, I just cannot develop film again.

Nathan FilmNx said:
Thanks Ralph, This is good feedback. This current version does spool out the film on its own after it is attached to the take-up spool. I think a slight change to the take-up spool would make it a fairly direct action of sliding the film down one of the four slots an easier target.

-Nathan

Clearly, Nathan, Ralph and I should get together about how people with one hand available (mostly) can work in a darkroom.

Larry Cloetta · Feb 27, 2019

I would guess, after watching this latest video, that the spinning of the film, not spaced out evenly on a reel, back and forth, with the film constantly rubbing either itself in varying parts, or the sides of the tank, would damage the emulsion, or at least some emulsions. Seems it would, though not having actually used one, I can’t say.

Born2Late · Feb 27, 2019

Larry Cloetta said:
I would guess, after watching this latest video, that the spinning of the film, not spaced out evenly on a reel, back and forth, with the film constantly rubbing either itself in varying parts, or the sides of the tank, would damage the emulsion, or at least some emulsions. Seems it would, though not having actually used one, I can’t say.

That is the same thought that I had, but it could be that it isn't an issue. Hopefully it isn't and it is successful.

Nathan FilmNx · Feb 27, 2019

Born2Late said:
That is the same thought that I had, but it could be that it isn't an issue. Hopefully it isn't and it is successful.

Yes, that is a fair bit of intuition to be concerned. In fact, I made a "vertical" reel-based version as well as the version we see here. In practice, I've come to the view that it is a non-issue. I've re-used a few rolls for 100s of cycles each and the only place they've shown emulsion wear is on the leader and the tail. So far I've developed a couple of dozen rolls that came out well and should be hearing from the folks that I sent alpha units to soon.

The fact that the film is fully immersed in fluid certainly doesn't hurt!

That said, only more testing will tell for certain.

-Nathan

Ozxplorer · Feb 27, 2019

Nathan... I too would prefer the liquid to be “agitated” rather than the film. At one stage Jobo made a auto loading take-up reel with a manual push down cutting blade designed to cut the film from the film canister once in/on the reel (also it is/was possible to load a specific number of frames before cutting)... maybe there is an adaptation of this system possible to suit your proposition? Their (Jobo) tank is model #2400 daylight tank.

Willyekerslike · Mar 1, 2019

Nathan,
Your method of unspooling the film and agitating the liquids is very similar to what goes on in an AGFA Rondix. Years ago I used one of the Agfa Rondix for quite a few years until I came to a point when I could afford more film and and wanted to develop more than one film at a time. I never had any problems with damage to the emulsion or uneven development. I think you motorised version is truly sound...............
Willy.................

Nathan FilmNx · Mar 3, 2019

Willyekerslike said:
Nathan,
Your method of unspooling the film and agitating the liquids is very similar to what goes on in an AGFA Rondix. Years ago I used one of the Agfa Rondix for quite a few years until I came to a point when I could afford more film and and wanted to develop more than one film at a time. I never had any problems with damage to the emulsion or uneven development. I think you motorised version is truly sound...............
Willy.................

Yes, the same operating principle as the Rondinax 35. We are approaching 100 rolls developed with no issue. I like the smaller footprint and simplicity of this version vs. the spool-based version. The fact that it is so small that my wife tolerates this on the kitchen counter hits one of my big goals.

In fact, I've been using two in parallel as I catch up as I've been working on this project at the expense of developing my film in the meantime.

-Nathan

John51 · Mar 5, 2019

There is certainly a market for daylight processing. The current price of one working Rondinax equals a lot of Paterson tanks and reels.

The 'brains' part of the system could be used for any tank/system that can be fed a tube. I load into a Paterson reel but wouldn't mind sticking a tube in it and pressing a button so I could walk away and come back when beep = done and washed.

For b+w, the chems are worth less than my time so I'd be ok with agitation being done by sucking out the dev and pumping it back in. Most of the time I use one shot so no problem.

What's good about the Rondix type system is that there is no reel to get dry before loading another film. Take a washed film out and immediately load the next one. Could do a lot of films in an evening with very little hands on time.

AgX · Mar 5, 2019

RalphLambrecht said:
....there must be an automated way to pull the film out of the spool and into a processing reel.Otherwise, I just cannot develop film again.

-) Jobo once offered loading systems for different formats incl. cine with a guide to push the film onto the reel. I am not sure though that worked singlehandedly. But something of that kind, maybe just the addition of an arrest for the reel at tuch system keeping from twisting might works. As I repeatedly stated Jobo made different designs of reels,which likely resulted in different abilities to push-on the film.

-) Jobo made 2 versions of a daylight-loading tank. However this tank takes just one 35mm reel and is not fit for a processor either. Other kind ofoperation than with a standard tank, it might be doable for you with some fixing aid as it does not need that precice movements as the standard reel.

Nathan FilmNx · Apr 21, 2019

As an update, I've posted the 3D design files on thingiverse - let me know if you are interested in making one or any change requests. I CNC machined most of this, however, I've also included files suitable for 3D printing.

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3579645

-Nathan

AgX · Apr 22, 2019

You better correct your wording, as practically all modern tanks are daylight tanks. What you got is a daylight-loading tank.

Nathan FilmNx · Apr 23, 2019

AgX said:
You better correct your wording, as practically all modern tanks are daylight tanks. What you got is a daylight-loading tank.

This is true!

-Nathan

AgX · Apr 23, 2019

But Agfa and Jobo did the same... And they and you are right in the sense that loading and processing takes place in daylight. But in context of the more common (darkroom-loading) tanks and the by now rare plain open tanks, we should be aware of terminology.

JWMster · Apr 23, 2019

Nathan: I would encourage you to talk to Omer Hecht at CatLabs JP as he is carrying a number of different types of film developing equipment. He would be a good sounding board for you I think. Good luck!

Nathan FilmNx · Apr 23, 2019

JWMster said:
Nathan: I would encourage you to talk to Omer Hecht at CatLabs JP as he is carrying a number of different types of film developing equipment. He would be a good sounding board for you I think. Good luck!

Hi JWMster - Thanks, this is great feedback, I appreciate it! I'll email his info@ address today.

-Nathan

AgX · Apr 23, 2019

Some things that come to my mind with your design are:

-) scratching of film
-) eveneness of development
-) interaction with the cassette (which is subemerged in the baths)

With modern day-light loading tanks from Jobo still around (at least over here) I actually do not see a benefit of your tank, neither by cost nor design.
Actually I question the benefit of any daylight-loading tank against the more versatile dark-loading tanks around.

JWMster · Apr 23, 2019

I thought the intent was simply another processing tank to use in daylight. My "darkroom" is a closet and I find it easiest to just wait until dark to load reels for my Jobo. Everyone has different needs, though. So there's no telling what the market is. What I can see at CatLabs is that here's the US Jobo distributor, and he's now distributing development processors by at least 3 different manufacturers.

Modular Daylight Developer System (35mm)

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